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Multiple events being created on single strike in Cubase

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I am having problems with modx creating multiple events on one strike when recording midi. It’s created a midi editing nightmare.

Example: I’ll record CFx Concert on multiple midi channels for each pet to get the entire performance. When I went back to edit a few missteps, I found that one strike had created 6 events in Cubase. I am at a loss. This has never happened to me before.

CFX Concert is not the only performance that has experienced this. There seems to be no rhyme or reason. Sometimes it’s only two events and I’ve seen as many as 8! And then sometimes it’s only one. And it doesn’t have to be a multi-Part Performance (blue). It can be a single part performance (green) and still do the same thing.

Midi Thru is on
Local control is off
Quick set up was set to midi record on DAW.
I’m using Cubase 9.5
I have not yet updated to 2.0.

I can provide more details if necessary. Hoping someone will have a quick answer of what I must be doing wrong.

 
Posted : 03/11/2019 8:41 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

You can record the four Part “CFX Concert” to a single Cubase MIDI Track as follows:

Press [UTILITY] > touch “Settings” > “Advanced” > set the “MIDI I/O Mode” = Hybrid*
Set the Channel = 1

*Hybrid is a new feature added in version 2.00 — it is designed for exactly this purpose.

This will allow the four Parts of the “CFX Concert” to be addressed, In and Out, on a single MIDI Channel (Ch1), yet allow the remaining Parts to be addressed as Single Parts on the correspondingly numbered MIDI Channel.

Create a single MIDI Track in Cubase
Set the MIDI IN to MONTAGE Port 1
Set the MIDI OUT to MONTAGE Port 1
Set the Out Channel = 1

This allows the data to properly recorded and played back from a single MIDI Track.
Local Control = Off

If you now “merge” a new Part to Part 5, it will be addressed on MIDI Channel 5.

You say you are using Cubase 9.5 but do not mention which Cubase.
If you are using Cubase Pro 9.5 you have more options available to you. (Just FYI).
Let us know.

Extra Credit:
A Multi Part Performance will normally transmit on multiple MIDI Channels. This is likely different for most folks. Because you can build sounds using multiple Parts this situation may arise. The CFX Concert is an acoustic piano constructed from multiple Parts, 18 Oscillators total across those four Parts. A 9-way velocity switching piano in the main body of the instrument, an 8xway velocity switching piano in the upper, undampered region, and a Key Off sound. When MIDI I/O Mode is Multi, the instrument outputs four events for each note you play (one per channel)... Hybrid Mode allows a Multi Part instrument to use a single channel, a single stream of MIDI events, to document your communication with this instrument.

 
Posted : 03/11/2019 9:04 pm
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That’s actually amazing news! I’ll update to 2.0 immediately.

Saying that, I’m concerned that doesn’t really fix my problem. Here’s a more detailed example.
1. I create a multi/gm performance
2. I add single part performances (green) to each part.
3. I create midi tracks in cubase PRO 9.5 (so I’m excited to hear about these additional features) with the corresponding channels assigned to each part in my multi performance.
4. I record on one track, one part.
5. I open up the key editor for said midi recording/data. I go to move an event that struck at the wrong moment (or whatever it might be) and discover that I have to delete multiple events stacked on top of one another. As if the key was struck multiple times simultaneously.

I’ll update to 2.0 and definitely implement what you discussed above. Because that’s freaking amazing!! But I’m not sure it really addresses this problem. But it might. Stay tuned.

 
Posted : 04/11/2019 12:41 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

I’m sure it does.

So how, if you’re using Multi/GM, are you using “CFX Concert”, you’ve lost me. But get back to us.
If you are now using Single Part programs in each slot, then there is no need to set the MIDI I/O Mode = Hybrid, you would leave it “Multi”.

 
Posted : 04/11/2019 1:49 am
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I’m sorry for the confusion. Using CFX Concert was really the less effective example. The second example better illustrates my issue.

 
Posted : 04/11/2019 4:31 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Please see the following tutorial article... Although written for the MONTAGE it should be on point for working with the MODX, as well.... let us know. Because you have a MODX — Be sure you look for the CUBASE Recording Template specifically for the MODX.

MONTAGE and Cubase Pro 9 Workflow

 
Posted : 04/11/2019 4:13 pm
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Be sure you look for the CUBASE Recording Template specifically for the MODX [/url]

Where do I get this Yamaha MODX Template?

 
Posted : 04/11/2019 9:51 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

Where do I get this Yamaha MODX Template?

What version of Cubase are you running?

 
Posted : 04/11/2019 10:00 pm
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Cubase Pro 10 🙂

 
Posted : 04/11/2019 10:02 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

It should be installed... go to NEW PROJECT... > you’re taken to the Steinberg Hub > on the right side of the screen “Projects” > under RECORDING you’ll find the Templates.

 
Posted : 04/11/2019 10:08 pm
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I am so sorry, was not looking at the right place..the template is indeed very help, thank you again for you patience and prompt responses Bad Mister for newbies like me 🙂

 
Posted : 04/11/2019 11:33 pm
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Oklay. I've downloaded the new update which is amazing.
I also followed your instructions to open the project with the modx template, which is also great. And it fixed my problem. So thank you thank you!!

Saying that, I still have the same problem from a normal template or not. For instance, I opened up an empty project. Added one midi track. Set that to a corresponding channel to any number of parts in a random multi performance, and voila!! Same problem. Now I know I can just move and continue to simple start with the MODX template. But there will inevitably come a moment when I can't do that. Like if I'm adding to an already existing project. So I really want to solve this problem but it 'seems' it's not a MODX problem but some setting in Cubase. Can you think of any setting that I might have that would cause multiple events on one strike while recording midi? It's just bizarre.

Thanks for your help.

 
Posted : 05/11/2019 3:49 am
Jason
Posts: 7910
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I can understand coming from a different paradigm that how MODX is operating seems "bizarre". At some point, you will internalize how MODX is accomplishing multi-PART sounds - why this would have been a choice to do - and this will all seem second nature.

When I read your results - I don't see anything unusual here. It's all just "business as usual" as far as what you're doing and what the results are.

Sticking with single-PART sounds is possible - I suppose. However, it's important to develop some workflow to deal with multi-PART sounds in order to cover that base.

It's important to get past the point of thinking there's something odd about multiple events for a single strike. This is sort of similar to the phases of grief. Acceptance. It's good to know - to really know - what's going on here so you can accept that this is how MODX works. It's been explained - but it doesn't hurt to have a few sources and really grapple with it until the lightbulb goes off.

The architecture of MODX sampled sounds (aka AWM2) is made up of oscillators called elements. There's more to it than that - but that's enough for where I'm going. At most each PART can have 8 elements. Now each element can either be programmed to respond together (so all 8 in a single PART are sounding/triggered at once by a single key) or there can be some programming to make only some of the elements sound at once - while at other times a different set of elements will sound. Some of these choices for making elements sound are: if you're playing legato or not (connected notes), if the A.SW1 button is ON, if the A.SW2 button is ON, if you're playing in a certain range of keys, if you're playing at certain velocities, if your letting go of a key vs. striking the key. With all of these options for making an element sound - you can appreciate that a single "sound" (simulated instrument, "patch" by older lingo) can run out of resources quickly with only 8 elements. After all - you may want some elements to sound with a variety of the previously listed choices for making them sound.

You will no doubt find exceptions - but any "single" instrument/sound which "wants" to use more than 8 elements MUST use more than 1 PART to construct this sound. This is ONE way that multi-PART sounds come in. I'm just going to stick with that "flavor" of construction - because the other major category of flavor is the old Motif way: multiple PARTs which are comprised of single-PARTs (like a bass in PART 1, organ in PART 2, and drums in PART 3). This is different because it's not representing one "instrument"/sound - but adding multiple sounds together to form a compound sound ("band", "performance" ).

So we've invented a world here where you must have (at least) two PARTs for a single sound. Because this sound is complex enough to need all of those elements. More than 8. Note that the reasonable limit for the largest multi-PART sound would be 8 PARTs. Since that's all you can control at once with the local keyboard. So 2-8 PARTs is the theoretical range for "size" of multi-PART sounds. Again - "sound" meaning it's replicating one "instrument" and not a collection of them (because that's the only construction I'm focused on).

In this world, we have to have a way for our piano keys to play such a thing. Things get a bit dicey here - but there are currently 3 modes of MODX operation. Multi-channel MIDI mode, Single-channel MIDI mode, and Hybrid MIDI mode. Single and Hybrid modes, with respect to any multi-PART sound, "emulates" how legacy equipment dealt with piano keys playing all of those individual PARTs. Each PART is placed on the same MIDI channel - so you would just see one MIDI stream on one channel - one set of note on and note off events - and this is what you expect from previous experience.

... however - neither of these modes are the chosen default for MODX when you reset it to factory defaults. The default mode is Multi-channel mode. And this is because this mode is more flexible in all respects. Single and hybrid modes have some serious handicaps when using MODX as a master controller. I won't get into that - and this may not matter for your usage. I mention this because it informs why multi-channel mode is the default. Less restrictions and more features that work. Yes, new - meaning somewhat of a learning curve - but probably worth the effort to learn to deal with for situations which call for multi-channel mode.

ALL OF BELOW DEALS WITH MULTI-CHANNEL MIDI MODE

When multi-channel mode is enabled - those multi-PART sounds (lets say 2 PARTs) can only be played by your piano keys at one time if all the PARTs have keyboard control turned ON. Assuming you haven't -selected- a PART that has keyboard control turned OFF, each and every PART with Keyboard Control = ON is going to send MIDI note on/off messages out the MIDI channel corresponding with the PART number. So, in our example with 2 PARTs (PART 1 and PART 2) - with no PARTs selected (or PART1 or PART 2 selected, just not PARTs 3-16 selected) when you strike a key - PART 1 will send note on/off messages corresponding to your piano key strikes and lifts on MIDI channel 1 and also PART 2 will send note on/off messages corresponding with your piano key strikes and lifts on MIDI channel 2. They'll likely look identical with exception of the MIDI channel number. Looks like duplicates - but really they are necessary so that if these streams are sent back to MODX - then both PART 1 and PART 2 will do what they're supposed to do.

Note: this business about identifying which PART is selected - and if that PART has keyboard control ON or OFF is an area of study if you don't have this internalized yet)

You can think of it like certain instruments/sounds are multi-track -- and really it's appropriate to send the same note on/off messages to each track of this instrument because that matches exactly what would happen if you were playing the piano keys to control this instrument. You don't have to send the same MIDI stream to a multi-PART sound. But there is not one sound (as I defined above - the kind of thing I'm focused on here) that "works" like that in the presets.

--- alternate universe time: It would probably make more "sense" to you if say a piano sound - one of the "complex" piano sounds - that takes up 4 PARTs to make that one sound would just squeeze into one single MIDI receive and transmit channel. If you could say PARTs 1-4 (this piano sound) should all share MIDI channel 1. And say you had an organ sound that took 2 PARTs and that PARTs 5-6 (this organ sound) would all share MIDI receive and transmit channel 2. That'd fit in with your previous expectations. Then when you play piano keys - the MIDI streams would be one channel worth of note on/off for every sound. Multi-PART sounds would have one stream and - even though comprised of multiple PARTs - would somehow have all of the PARTs respond to receiving a single MIDI channel worth of messages from an external DAW/controller. However, that is not what MODX does. You cannot assign MIDI receive channels when in multi-channel mode. There's no moving that rock.

So instead (back to Earth from the alternate universe) - the paradigm is that multi-PART sounds are split into multiple MIDI channels.

 
Posted : 05/11/2019 6:06 am
Jason
Posts: 7910
Illustrious Member
 

Also, I think templates and shortcuts are OK either as training wheels or as accelerators - but you would also benefit from constructing a project without any templates. To understand what's going on by doing it the hard / slow way in order to gain an appreciation for what's being automated and why. Templates may not serve every situation and it would be difficult to recognize this or what to do if you're not familiar with how to setup everything without the templates.

Not saying to drop templates this second - it may still be appropriate to use them as training wheels. Only that there may be value in a multi-prong attack here.

 
Posted : 05/11/2019 6:11 am
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Jason that was pretty awesome! Thanks for taking the time there. I think I'm heading in the right direction of how the MODX works. And this was very helpful. You are absolutely right that I need to be able to build my own setups from scratch. This is why I've continued on here after the Multi-Channel template fixed my problem. Because even though it fixed it, when I was building my own projects, I was still experiencing the same problem. So, I'm gonna take what you gave me here and see if I can't tear into things a little deeper and solve my own problem. If I hit a brick wall, I'll reach back out. Probably with a video link to show you exactly what is going, just to make sure y'all aren't' misunderstanding my quandary.

Thanks again!!

 
Posted : 06/11/2019 3:06 am
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