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Rod
 Rod
Posts: 0
Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

Hello - I am having trouble with applying effects, in particular Tremolo, and am sure I'm missing something. For example, I wish to apply Tremolo to a 4 Part electric piano I've dreamed up (from Montage Presets), and with this selected in the 'HOME' page I press 'EDIT' and select 'Effect' on-screen, then 'Variation' - the 'Switch' is On (lit green) and I tap 'Category' to select 'Trem/Rtr' and then 'Tremolo' from the 'Type' list, then 'Fast' in the 'Preset' list. I can then make as many changes as I like among the parameters, and as dramatic as I like - and nothing has the slightest effect on the sound itself. So I'm missing something vital - can someone please explain what? Hopefully simply! Thank you!

 
Posted : 30/06/2017 4:20 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 12304
 

The Variation Effect, together with the Reverb, are called the SYSTEM EFFECTS. This means all Parts in the system have access to these Effects. What you describe is activating the Tremolo as a Variation Effect, what you're missing is, now you must SEND some signal into the Effect.

The SYSTEM Effects work like Auxiliary Sends on a mixing console.

From the PERFORMANCE (HOME) screen
Touch "Mixing" in the first column of the screen. Here you can view your Parts in the mixer view... each channel strip has Send amount to the SYSTEM EFFECTS... simply dial up the amount of "Var Send" you wish from each Part.
Press [STORE]

 
Posted : 30/06/2017 6:55 pm
Rod
 Rod
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Thank you BM - I see the potential in sweeping all Effects other than Reverb under the blanket of 'Variation', but I find the implementation somewhat confusing (Great Scott!). In any event the Effects are disappointing, both in the technicality of their application and in the results. ADSL and Reverb are both simple to apply, and adequately effective - but everything else is not. It is probably my inept handling, but applying Tremolo to my Pf caused definite changes to the characteristics of it - it became harsh and strident, and nothing like my original design. Puts me off further experiment - do others find things not to their liking?

 
Posted : 02/07/2017 4:47 pm
Jason
Posts: 7909
Illustrious Member
 

Maybe it would be easier to get a handle by starting with a simple preset like "Init Normal (FM-X)".

After recalling this performance, edit the PART - make sure "Common" (lower left) is selected - menu "Effect" -> "Routing" and dial up the variation send to something reasonably high (65-127 somewhere in there).

Then go back to [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) and click at the top performance name ("Init Normal (FM-X)" in larger font) in order to "Edit" the performance-wide settings. Here go to "Effects" -> "Routing" and change the Var (Variation) type to "Tremolo". The default will be a "Fast" preset. Listen to how that sounds. Sounds good to me. There are 6 other presets. If you stick with the presets then they should all sound fine. Then start branching out from there.

This is just a suggestion for orientation purposes to get a handle on general use of effects. When I first started some time ago - I didn't quite "get it" and took a more "shotgun" approach where I would change numbers to labels I didn't really understand - sometimes nothing would happen and this would be due to not understanding which virtual knobs and dials turned on what features.

Also, the history is that reverb is still reverb and what was once "chorus" - due to the expansion of available effects - is now called "variation". It's like a system-wide insertion effect - but you have to pick one that makes sense for all. That's just history - you have the general idea down of what variation represents.

BM talked about the keyboard being like a virtual band and recording studio (place) together. The system and master effects as properties of the room/studio the virtual musicians are in, each "PART" (or collection of PARTs for multi-PART instruments) being a musician, and under each PART the insertion effects being the effects each musician brings with them (like a distortion pedal for a guitar, or the rotating speaker for an organ, or some vocal processor for the choir, etc). This is a way to visualize the different "levels" of effects - not necessarily a hard and fast rule of how to use effects. But it may help to use a more conventional paradigm, use training wheels of presets, and use simple PART sounds to first get the feel for how to use effects.

 
Posted : 02/07/2017 6:41 pm
Rod
 Rod
Posts: 0
Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

Thanks Jason - there is much in what you say. My Pf is a 4 Part electric piano and I wanted Tremolo on all 4, so I followed the route exactly as you outlined (having first followed BM's instructions on actually sending some variation - all 4 set to 127) and arrived at the 'Tremolo - Fast' scenario - and it had no discernible effect whatsoever. Like the first time - but I had hoped that actually sending some variation would solve the problem. It doesn't. Twiddling other parameters (with no real idea what to expect) did produce some variations, none of them pleasing or useful - this is down to my lack of theoretical knowledge as to what causes what, but I don't expect to need a degree in sound engineering to use a synth. I'll give your suggestion a go when next on Montage, perhaps grasp enough of the basics to know what to do to achieve what - but it's way too complicated for anyone but an expert ... I do appreciate the different levels, but 'Insertion' effects are of no value to me as I'm not trying to re-create a 'band' sound, and I'm none too sure about 'Master' effects either as they don't seem to work as a quick-fix anyway, so I need to grasp 'System' effects more completely - I see that the 8 knobs have a function group named 'EQ/FX' that includes Variation, but I suppose it is necessary to set all that up before it will work anyway. No short-cuts! Pity - ADSL and Reverb work as I expect, though, so that's a bonus!

 
Posted : 03/07/2017 6:50 am
Rod
 Rod
Posts: 0
Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

Hello again Jason and BM - I've done the 'crash course', thank you. One problem is caused by the so-called 'Single Part' pre-sets being quite heavily effected by factory programming, so I must first check on that and delete anything at odds with what I want to do - I have that procedure noted, and it works. Thanks to you, I now have another procedure to follow, of re-setting the levels of effect send and return in the 'Mixing' screen before moving on to the 'EDIT' function and then the 'Effect' screen.

Although things now work in an expected manner (most of the time) my opinion of the on-board effects (under the 'Variation' banner) remains the same - they are weak and disappointing in the main. This isn't a huge problem for me, and the versatility of this amazing machine often allows alternatives. Thank you for your expertise and remarkable patience ...

 
Posted : 03/07/2017 4:07 pm
Jason
Posts: 7909
Illustrious Member
 

I'm not sure anything on Montage or any other keyboard these days requires a degree of any sort - except perhaps a degree of patience. Usually a high degree in that department. With all of the various options to set - the flexibility allows for you to shoot yourself in the foot. Like turn up the darkness while the lights are off. Nothing much will happen. What I mean is in the area where you set the variation type (tremolo, or wah, or bit cruncher, or .. ) there's a "Var Return". You can dial this up and down and generally nothing will happen (if the variation sends from each PART are at zero).

The "Var Return" is the depth of the effect for the entire performance. Even if a PART asks for "127" (100% effect) - the final amount of effect applied is scaled by the "Var Return". So "Var Return" is the amount of effect that each PART gets to further scale by the "Var Send".

Under each PART - there's a "Var Send" under the routing screen (as one place some parameters have multiple homes). The "Var Send" must be dialed up on a PART for that PART to participate in the Variation.

So if "Var Send" is set to 64 for PART1 (the half-way mark), "Var Send" is set to 127 for PART2 (100%), "Var Send" is set to 0 for PART3 (no variation requested), AND "Var Return" (the global performance-level setting) is set to 64 (half-way mark) - the result will be:

PART 1: "Ok, you asked for half - but since return is set to 50%, you get half of 50%" - so the amount of variation applied will be %25 of maximum
PART 2: "Ok, you asked for it all, but the return is limiting you to 50% - so you get 100% of half variation" - so the amount of variation applied will be 50% of maximum
PART 3 "You asked for 0%. That's what you get. Ask for zero, you always get zero." - so the amount of variation applied will be 0% (no variation)

You can see there are settings which will cause no variation to happen.

Not only that - but some effects have their own dependencies on how you set them up and how you play them. The vocoder is an example and the manuals take time to explain this effect more than others due to the unique nature of having to both have microphone input (or other configured modulation source) and key presses at the same time before any sound comes out. The effects sometimes have a "dry / wet" setting which can result in nullifying the effect if set to 100% dry. There may be other cases where changing parameters causes such a subtle effect that the changes do not sound like anything is happening. It does take knowing something about what an effect does (each one is slightly different) and what the parameters do. There is some discussion in the manuals - but not a "cliff notes" style presentation.

Finally (for now), your setting everything to 127 is not an advisable way to handle effects. Most effects range from nuance to silly. And usually 127=silly. If you turn the spring reverb all the way up on a guitar amp - you dial in Dick Dale hang 10. I say "silly" because it's not really the "hip" thing to just turn all the knobs up to 11. You'll quickly get into a range of the effect where it's too much. Sugar is great - but you can't just eat raw sugar. Mix in some other things (dial down that effect). I'm not saying you can't do it - but the same effects you're not fond of using with your experimentation thus far are used left-and-right in performances you do like that are stock presets. Presets are another source of inspiration for how to use effects (deconstructing the effects settings they use).

 
Posted : 03/07/2017 6:25 pm
Rod
 Rod
Posts: 0
Estimable Member
Topic starter
 

Hello Jason - tell me about it! Not being a musician or song composer, I ignore 'Vocoder' altogether, and both 'Insertion' and 'Master' effects are on the back burner. I see the knobs in the 'EQ/FX' group control the 'Return' for both Reverb and Variation, so I propose to employ that to add the degree of effect I want - having first set up the other parameters as advised by yourself and BM. Looking for the line of least resistance, as ever - keep it simple is my motto (or as simple as possible!). My idea of banging up the 'Sends' to 127 is just that the 'Return' can adjust the actual result all the way from zilch to silly in one hit. No need to keep dodging backwards and forwards. Well, that's my theory ... all I need now is the time to get back to Montage for more experimentation ... I've never had a synth (and I've had plenty!) that keeps pulling me back to it like Montage does ...

 
Posted : 04/07/2017 9:32 am
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