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 Andy
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

hi all, how do i edit/change the filter types so i can use the knobs to tweak and play also is it possible to have different filter type per part. thanks

 
Posted : 18/03/2017 4:14 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 0
 

The Montage features 18 different Filter Types. Filters are found on a per Waveform basis... in the AWM2 sample engine each Element has its own Filter and in the FM-X engine the 8 Operators travel through the Filter together.

So it is a found among the Part parameters.
If on an AWM2 Part:
Press [EDIT]
Press [PART SELECT x] to view Part parameters
In the screen you can see the active Elements along the bottom of the screen, touch an active Element to view its parameters.
Touch "Filter" > touch "Type"
Here you can select from 18 Types plus "Thru" (bypass)

If on an FM-X Part
Press [EDIT]
Press [PART SELECT x] to view Part parameters
In the screen touch "Common" lower left corner
Touch "Pitch/Filter" > "Filter Type"
Here you can select from 18 Types plus "Thru"

If on a Drum Kit Part
Each Key in a Drum Kit (73) has its own filters
Press [EDIT]
Select Drum Kit Part
In the lower right of the screen activate the Keyboard Select
Select a Key. Each has its own LPF and HPF.

The dedicated CUTOFF and RESONANCE knobs do not control a filter, they are Offset knobs, that "add to" or "take away from" the individual Filters active within the Selected Part (or all Filters together if "Common" is lit).
Controllers can assigned to any Filter for direct control with Montage's Control Matrix. Filter movement can be automated via LFOs or via Motion Sequences, Arpeggios, Velocity, Effects, etc., etc.

 
Posted : 18/03/2017 4:42 am
 Andy
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

thanks BM. got it

 
Posted : 18/03/2017 6:19 am
Bad Mister
Posts: 0
 

I have to mention, as I tried to mention to Chris... In general, you assign things to Assignable Knobs that you want to manipulate in real time. Here's what I mean: And please understand there is no right or wrong here, just "best practices" and reason why they are "best practices".. For example, changing the FILTER Type during a performance is akin in the real acoustic world of instruments of changing the shape and/or materials that the instrument is made from... you have to be careful what you put on a knob that someone my turn in the heat of performing!!!

FILTER is a synth structure used to shape the general character of the sound. A Trumpet sounds different from a Coronet, which sounds different from a Flugelhorn, due in part, to the shape and, of course, the material (Brass, nickel, etc) used to build the horn - a Brass trumpet sounds different from a Nickel trumpet. The process of changing these in real time is a noisy, time consuming process in our real world.

Now at Yamaha we did fashion a synth or two , the VL-1 and the VP-1, that could changing size, shape and material, in real time but it was not about changing "Filters", per se, but about manipulating the mathematics of the acoustical properties of a Physical Model... but let's not go there right now...

Any way, there are certain parameters when you switch them are not musically pleasing - meaning they cause such a dramatic change that there is a non-musical result (usually like riding along and then hitting a speed bump at high speed)... You don't scroll through a list of EFFECT TYPES on an assignable knob that is to be performed - that I guess, is the only warning here. Just be aware of what you assign for manipulation - to a KNOB!

However, to reinforce some of Chris' point about Knob Assignment... You can use your eight Assignable Knobs as a "mini front panel" to a synth. In the upcoming FM-X Exploration, we take just such a tactic to point out how you might put something like wave shape (Spectral Form) selection on an Assign Knob.

Now, you are not going to use this Knob to sweep through wave shapes during a held note. But you can use it to switch tonal families when first designing the basic tone. The Tutorial will dive into how to go about creating your basic wave families using a combination of parameter, ganged together into a mini synth front panel with 8 Knob! You can build literally hundreds of sounds from just setting these 8 Knobs

Switching FILTERS by twisting an Assign Knob rapidly would be like hitting 18 speed bumps in the road at high speed. And the annoying changing in instrument tone would give the effect of someone changing the radio stations in rapid succession (if that is what you are after, well, its that kind of non-musical result you must be prepared for). But using it wisely, you would select a FILTER at a musically convenient time!

But assigning to Knobs parameters that you want to react with is indeed a great way to understand programming better and learn how parameters interact with other parameter setting. Assignment is actually much easier than Chris' "description" above. But it is a great way to begin learning.

Programming is really something that you can design. The key is not to just follow one road map, and certainly you do not "have to" proceed in any one fashion. The idea is play around with it and discover things on your own.

 
Posted : 18/03/2017 2:53 pm
Bad Mister
Posts: 0
 

And that is my point... you have do some things at a musically convenient time. Just because you can does not always mean you should.

 
Posted : 18/03/2017 9:22 pm
Joe
 Joe
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

My 2 cents. BM should always remember that music is purely subjective and there are most definitely no should/should nots in this respect. Sticking to technical details about the synth is a much better use of your time.

Case in point, there are numerous synth parameters that can't be assigned to the assignable knobs (even though most of the literature (consumer and official) often says or tries to imply that "everything" can be modified with super knob). Maybe some of these things are things that technically couldn't be assigned. But I'm guessing that some of these are things that someone at Yamaha decided wouldn't produce "musical" results to be able to modify in real time with Super Knob/automation, and so left it out. To these people I encourage the following approach:

Never make that call on behalf of another person when designing a world class instrument to be used by discerning adults. (Sure it may be different when designing something for children or similarly needs to be dumbed down or whatever for ease of use etc). Musical/sonic potential is limited with every unnecessary (and ultimately arbitrary) limitation you employ in the design. It's a synth, not a violin...

BM, I respect your scientific approach and time given to help others when giving advice regarding technical details. But this isn't the first time you've tried to tell us what music is. I appreciate and value all of your technical advice (and time put into giving it) BM but when it comes to what is music (in the context of this forum), your opinions are actually (respectfully) irrelevant. Surely you know this. Please bear in mind, I really do mean no disrespect, I'm just calling a spade a spade. Giving someone a lesson in what happens when they change filter types in performance may come across as condescending or just be a waste of your time. They may know full well what to expect. And if they don't, well, they'll find out for themselves very soon enough (it's very quick to discover such things!).

Joe

 
Posted : 18/03/2017 10:44 pm
Joe
 Joe
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

And BM, I do look forward to the upcoming FMX tutorials! I have been using three Yamaha TX816 synths (at the same time) for a few years now in sound design and musical applications and I bought the Montage to take my exploration and enjoyment with the TX816 to new levels. Montage is amazing.

 
Posted : 18/03/2017 10:55 pm
 Andy
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
Topic starter
 

thanks chris this is terrific!

 
Posted : 19/03/2017 2:37 am
Jason
Posts: 7897
Illustrious Member
 

Joe, I've wished for a more complete set of destinations. Even suggested someone author a list of the "gaps" by noting which settings are NOT available in AWM2, FM-X, and master/global settings/effects. This was never taken on (nor did I ever author this). But there are plenty of gaps - and anything can be musical. On the other side of the coin, I've mentioned limits - the hardware has limits. The hardware may be at a saturation point where adding any parameter would take a parameter which is in use away. That's not going to happen - because the cure is worse than the symptom.

The foundation of whole genres were basically birthed out of artifacts and previously non-musical noises generated from equipment. Distortion, tape degradation, jitter, drift, etc ... Lots of imperfections and "mistakes" that are now part of mainstream. The next big thing may have been some "backwards" combination of unavailable parameters. Maybe not - it does take work to program this stuff and the more options the more work. I think BM understands this (bit about imperfections being musical). Can't fault BM for putting spin on what's available to make the choices you're presented with more palatable.

This is just a guess, but I think the "real" order of how we got here was:

1) Not enough resources, so design team whittled down the options using some form of ranking system
2) Whatever Montage was left with, gets a marketing "spin" after-the-fact.

You'll see inconsistencies in the marketing spin from generation to generation as the options change.

Although I do think that "attach rate" (meaning how many people "seem" to use a function) plays somewhat into deciding if a feature is dropped. However, the perception of attach rate is also skewed by how well a feature is implement. If a feature is implemented "perfectly" - then the support team may never hear about it because it causes no problems - is easy to figure out - so the only time they hear a complaint or feedback is when it is missing. Take this with a grain of salt - but eventually, keyboard keys may go away because they're taken for granted and hardly anyone mentions them.

 
Posted : 19/03/2017 5:36 am
Joe
 Joe
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

Chris wrote:

+1 to both Joe and Jason thoughts here. I have begged Yamaha to open up all the routing capabilities. I dont care if they think its impractical. I will find a use for it.
Why cant we assign all parameters to knobs etc? Has anyone considered what happens with combinations of parameter routings? I agree if everything just becomes static noise that might be unnessecary but if there is a subtle effect that occurs we might like it.

Yes for sure. Chaos yields greatness 🙂

Chris wrote:
Again I still want to be able to assign the lfo rate in sync mode to a knob. This way I can change the lfo speed at musical intervals not just a numerical value.

Yes things like this seem strange not to include if they included the other.

Chris wrote:
Also we need to be able to assign the Filter Sustain level to a knob not the rate so it matches traditional synthesis filter effects. Yamaha products only allow us to assign these values to the time. Again the sustain needs to be the level.

Quote http://www.musicradar.com/tuition/tech/how-to-use-basic-adsr-filter-envelope-parameters-578874

"The A, D and R controls on a synth are measured in time, while the S parameter is always a level, giving you control over shaping the volume contour of any sound. "

I thought I had figured out a way of controlling this Filter EG Sustain level but I was wrong. Not sure how to achieve that or if it's possible at all currently. Seems an odd thing to leave out.

Joe

 
Posted : 20/03/2017 2:00 pm
Joe
 Joe
Posts: 0
Eminent Member
 

Joe wrote:
This can be done already. The parameter equivalent to Sustain is the Decay2 Level value which is selectable as a source destination for an assign knob. (Element - - > Filter EG).

Apologies, I am thoroughly mistaken! Ignore this^

Joe

 
Posted : 20/03/2017 2:04 pm
Jason
Posts: 7897
Illustrious Member
 

ADSR levels as destinations is one of the gaps in parameters available.

Thursday, November 03 2016

It would kind of be nice to be able to target the envelope levels in individual parts (just the level of attack, decay 1, or decay 2) - but I guess depth is all you can do to adjust the level which applies to all 3 levels in unison.

EDIT: The data list does confirm that FEG (and all envelope destinations) show the ADSR as time (montage_en_dl_v110_b0.pdf page 167). So keep in mind what you are editing here. It's how long your filter will take to ramp up, down, or stay the same between two points in the ADSR curve. The levels are not changed unless you use depth to notch down the level which is applied to all points equally.

 
Posted : 20/03/2017 2:21 pm
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