There are two basic Quick Setups for recording MIDI to a DAW
One for recording you playing the keys directly. Quick Setup 1: MIDI Rec on DAW
One for recording Performances with Arpeggios involved. Quick setup 2: Arp Rec on DAW

You stop short of including which Performance you are recording.

If Local Control is Off, and you are not echoing back the data (MIDI THRU ACTIVE) controllers have no affect on the tone engine.
Make MIDI THRU ACTIVE and select the appropriate Quick Setup for the type Performance you're recording.

If I select Quick Setup: Arp Record on DAW, the performance sounds nothing like it should when I play. The arps are pretty much non-existent, with only occasional notes sounding, like brief blips.

So, the settings I've used produce the correct sound when playing the keys and also playing recorded MIDI back, but missing volume slider moves.

CUBASE SETTINGS:

Montage Port 1
Channels: ANY
MIDI Thru Active: un-ticked
Nothing is filtered (including SYSEX)

MONTAGE SETTINGS

Local Control: ON
Arp MID Out: ON
Receive: ON
Transmit: ON

The settings you have suggested (Quick setup 2: Arp Rec on DAW) produces the wrong sound, as I've described above, both when playing the keys and playing back recorded data. (Arps totally screwed up - unusable).

There has to be something else going on here.

(I can produce audio recordings to demonstrate what I'm hearing with the two configurations, if that would be helpful).

Lawrence

Further:

I just tested with another performance (in this case ‘Power of Emotion’) and get the same results:

With Cubase MIDI thru active selected, Local control OFF, and ARP MIDI on, I don’t get the arps sound, except for the occasional sound, like one or two notes.

With Cubase MIDI thru active not selected, Local control ON, and ARP MIDI on I get the proper sound, but with slider limitation.

So the issue is not related to a particular performance.

Hi Lawrence, Thank you for your post. We'll get back to you shortly.

Amy - Community Coordinator

Thank you for the question... It speaks to the reason the Montage has a direct Performance Record feature. I've spent a lot of time helping folks understand how recording multiple streams of data coming from a a synth when using arpeggios. It is not always a simple thing to do. And I coined the phrase "MIDI Jedi Knight Merit Badge" which is what you earn figuring out exactly how to record a Performance that includes you playing and the output of an arpeggiator(s) you are triggering.

It is not for those that don't fully understand MIDI routing (and who "forget" that the arpeggiator, when used, IS NOT you playing) Each arpeggiator tasked with generating notes is like another keyboard player sending a separate stream of data to your computer.

Add to this, the computer cannot tell which is YOU, and which is the ARP. To the DAW, it sees a note-on, coming from the port.

Say you hit and hold down a key, on one sound it is asked to hold that sound for 4 measures say a held synth bass note... On another sound it takes that note-on and turns it into a drum and percussion groove, and on another it turns that held note into a killer guitar picking part.

When you send that note-on back to the synth you have to ensure the held note goes to the bass... To the drum kit four measures of a held note is meaningless. To the guitar you want to hear the finger picked part, note a drone of that note sounding across four bars. So sorting the data is not always simple.

The drum kit track does not document you directly striking and holding a note, because YOU are not playing the drums, the ARP is. So for the drums you want to prevent the "direct" strike of that key from being recorded on the drum's MIDI track. You only want the output of the Arpeggiator to be recorded to this track. But you may additionally be playing directly a synth lead sound with your right hand which, of course, you want to record verbatim... But not that held note which is triggering the drums bass and guitar....

That's why you earned a MIDI Jedi Knight Merit Badge...

I'll state the obvious: it is much easier to record the Performance to the Montage's own direct Performance Recorder (in 98.9% of the cases)... Because it has a distinct advantage over your computer DAW in this instance... It can "know" what you Play on the keys and what the arps Play! And syncing is not a problem....

That said, let's analyze what's happening in "Power of Emotion"
Parts 2, 3, 4 and 5 are under control of the arpeggiators. Which play in different Scenes and are silent in other Scenes
Parts 1, 6 and 7 are played by you directly when they are activated by the position of the Super knob.
Also of significance is the Drum Kit Part is set "Arp Play Only", (this is activated on drum kits to keep them from sounding in response to direct key presses when the Arp is stopped. (again, drums are mapped across the entire keyboard and would/should be sounding every time you hit a key), this parameter prevents them from sounding except to data generated by the arpeggiator assigned to that Part and not via the keys when stopped.

To record this Performance to your DAW.
Select the QUICK SETUP #2 "Arp Rec on DAW"
Set a single MIDI Track to receive from Montage-1
Set the MIDI OUT of that track to transmit to Montage-1
Set the Channel of this Track to "Any"
You can leave MIDI THRU ACTIVE (as Montage takes care of the Midi routing to prevent doubling in this scenario).

The Quick Setup allows us to Monitor the Montage DIRECT (and prevent Midi echo). The key presses pass through the Montage Arpeggiator block before going out via MIDI, so what you play and what the arpeggiator is playing is intelligently routed out via MIDI. The trigger data is separated and prevented from being output, while those things you are playing are routed through to the DAW (but prevented from echoing back. (montage takes care of this).

You will want to set your DAW as the master MIDI clock with Montage-1 (port1) as the destination.
"ARP REC ON DAW" automatically sets the Montage to follow the tempo as set in the DAW.

Because the Montage is routing data, you need to capture how it is automatically mapping the various data to channels. In Cubase create a single MIDI track with the channel setting = "any" this will allow it to record the data as routed out by Montage and send it back properly to Montage on playback.

Make sure in your DAW you are set to record System Exclusive (many DAWs, including Cubase default to filtering these messages)
If you wish to separate your recording to individual MIDI Tracks you do so AFTER recording is finished... With the data highlighted go to MIDI and select DISSOLVE PARTS by channel... This will separate the data by channel. The Sysex data is merged with Channel 1's data.

Until we get the Montage capture utility, you must remember to recall the Performance to restore its initial settings... Remember if you stop recording the controllers remain where they are at that moment. To reset to the initial settings you must manually recall the "Power of Emotion" Performance tomensure your playback begins as you expect.

Let us know.

I'll state the obvious: it is much easier to record the Performance to the Montage's own direct Performance Recorder (in 98.9% of the cases)... Because it has a distinct advantage over your computer DAW in this instance... It can "know" what the arps Play!

so yamaha is basically telling us that recording of 10,000 stock arps into cubase does not work properly. unbelievable. the chickens come home to roost. early montage customers are having to pay the price for believing that there was no need for a recorder with basic sequencer functions, such as copy and delete. even smorenburg had to find a workaround for recording stuff in a meaningful way. what a shame. meanwhile korg staffers are laughing themselves silly. btw, the term "music synthesizer" is the dumbest tautology of all time. what else, other than making music, can you do with a synthesizer, for god´s sake?!? 😀

Markus, respectfully, I think I said just the opposite.

"The Quick Setup allows us to Monitor the Montage DIRECT (and prevent Midi echo). The key presses pass through the Montage Arpeggiator block before going out via MIDI, so what you play and what the arpeggiator is playing is intelligently routed out via MIDI. The trigger data is separated and prevented from being output, while those things you are playing are routed through to the DAW (but prevented from echoing back. (montage takes care of this)."

Please read again, slowly and out loud... 🙂 perhaps you really just missed the point I was trying to make... Recording arpeggios from hardware to software used to be difficult. You needed to know about what was triggered notes and what were arpeggio'd notes. You no longer do. If you try it you'll see.

what else, other than making music, can you do with a synthesizer, for god´s sake?!? 😀

Perhaps you should get out more into the real world... 3D printers allow you to synthesize many things, for example. If you have a legitimate question, ask it. We'd be happy to help you.

with all due respect, phil, but you missed the point. for months, you deliberately downplayed the role and significance of the recorder here. your basic theme was: everyone uses daw´s nowadays, on-board sequencers are therefore obsolete, so shut up (i´m exaggerating a bit). now your line of argumentation has completely changed. now the recorder plays an important role. in order to record arps properly the recorder is suddenly the goldstandard, not the daw.

the Montage's own direct Performance Recorder [...] has a distinct advantage over your computer DAW [...] It can "know" what the arps Play!

i agree with you, actually, but my point is: if that is the case—if it is better to record arps within the board than directly into the daw—then why does the recorder lack basic functions, for heaven´s sake? you wrote:

it is much easier to record the Performance to the Montage's own direct Performance Recorder (in 98.9% of the cases).

easier?? give me a break! using both “easyness” and “recorder” in one sentence is one hell of a joke. how can working with the recorder be easy when it lacks basic functions? no copying or deleting of measures is possible. if the recorder would be that easy then bert would never had that workaround idea. pleeeeease, yamaha, do some touching-up on the recorder´s functionality! in return for your good will i´d purchase a montage 6 at music store in cologne, germany. i make an oath.

We appreciate your obvious passion for a proper sequencer (traditional) in the Montage. But don't exaggerate about what you think I'm downplaying or promoting. I'm simply helping people understand what is available. More importantly to help users and potential users, like yourself, better understand what the purpose of the on board recorder is (and what it isn't.) This way your requests will have better context.

If you understand recording of Midi, then you also understand that there is a complexity to it when attempting to record it externally. Beyond just hitting record and playing back. There are routing and clocking issues that have to be dealt with. Particularly when arpeggios are mixed in, there is an extra layer of complexity. There are potential Midi loop issues, etc. And because, not everyone works the same way, there can't be just one recording solution when transmitting Out via Midi. Necessarily, the must be one for playing normally (direct) and one for recording arpeggios.

The prime function of the Recorder built-in to Montage is to be able capture, quickly and easily, as MIDI or as Audio, any Performance you contruct with the Motion Control engine. If you're new to this and are not really clear on what is meant by "Motion Control", it's possible that you may not immediately grasp *why* some things that changed, changed. And *why* the Recorder works as it does. All I ask is that you consider this and/or allow for this.

Recording here can involve more than just the 'usual' tools you have been used to when working with your traditional built-in workstation tone engine/sequencer, but an entirely new set of functions are here that require a different situation. Since you can use external sources to modify and interact with the Montage capturing what you are doing and what is happening is the prime purpose of this recorder... some of the interaction can involve "live" external input sources. The external source might be used for its audio or just for generating a control or envelope to be applied within the synth engine.

If there is to be a change in the implementation of the recorder on the instrument, it will still have to service the prime function. So before one can intelligently engage in a conversation about "improvements", let's be sure there is an understanding about what's involved to capture a "live" interaction with the Motion Control Engine (first). Then we can have an intelligent (musical) dialog, but if it is all about bluster and Internet bravado (count me out).

Because your post shows you care or at least have some interest in Montage, we'll take the time to write this on the current implementation:
After routing Source/Destination parameters to control multiple destinations within a Performance you want to record it. You've created a musical construct that uses a combination of arpeggiated Parts, Motion Sequences automating parameter changes to various Parts, realtime directly controlled Pads and a Lead.... perhaps you're using a drum arpeggio to trigger the vocoder, and a percussion arpeggio routed to influence the Modulation Index of three Operators in your FM/AWM2 Pad sound... The Super Knob is morphing your lead sound through several subtle changes as you play.

Literally, press Record count off and lay it down - capture it.
The time needed, no matter how minimal, to setup to record to computer is what we're dealing with here. And, trust me, this is the best implementation of the Quick Setup templates, one for recording normal MIDI to a DAW, and one for recording Arpeggios to a DAW.

The concept of the on-board Performance recorder is to capture your idea, immediately. Move it to DAW where editing, and further tweaking can be most efficiently done. Setup to route signal to Montage's extensive audio output busing system; if you are going to isolate the audio of your multiple Part Performance and since rendering audio is an important part of the workflow now. Every Part can have its own stereo bus output. Even individual drums from within a kit can be routed to a discreet assignable USB bus output, if that is you workflow.

Yes, there are two (Quick Setup) Midi record templates that make your record settings -these do make it extremely easy, but you still have to set your DAW to send clock. You have to fiddle with something. So the quickest is the on board recorder. The internal, is easier. The computer routing is easy enough now, but the easiest is the internal. You don't have to select any quick setup template you just document your idea immediately.

Once you've created your own Motion Control Performance, and you can record either MIDI or Audio to the internal recorder. Both reference clock, so when exported to DAW, they are tempo and measure relevant. Say you record MIDI, because you always do. When you play it back you can hear what you've done exactly as you've played it. If you have a USB drive connected it immediately provides you with an option to export it as a .mid file or if you are recording audio you can immediately move the file to your DAW.

OF COURSE, in other scenarios, some folks will want to use the Montage in a completely different manner. Setting their own Midi Channels, or using it as a 16 Part tone module, like they did in their old Motif. But this is NOT that type of sequencer, not because the engineers don't know how to make that type of sequencer, obviously. But because what is here is designed to record what's *new* about Montage.

If you plan on playing Montage without utilizing the whole Motion Control interface, that's fine, too, but don't say you weren't aware of its existence and relevance to programs that do utilize it.

Phil wrote:

If there is to be a change in the implementation of the recorder on the instrument, it will still have to service the prime function.

May I suggest the following improvement to the MIDI recorder: The Play/Rec display has a row of 16 green buttons for Play On/Off for each of the 16 tracks. Add a similar row of red buttons below (it fits by moving the green row and the record indicator up a bit within the display) for Record On/Off for each of the 16 tracks.

How does this serve the new workflow? Based on your idea for a music prorotype, you define the desired performance with parts, motion control, arpeggios, envelope follower, super knob programming, scene programming (scenes may be used where patterns were used yesterday), effects, etc. Then you play the prototype in one shot into the Montage recorder which conveniently and easily keeps tracks of all the moving parts in the MIDI events. (An added benefit of this new workflow is that you get good practice in keeping control of all elements of the Montage which will serve your possible later live performance well.)

Now, given that we only have 10 fingers and 2 feet to control the instrument, it may not be humanly and Montage possible to actually do everything that you would like to have in the prototype in one shot. For example, today I wanted to add a couple of solos to a prototype which both required my dedicated attention and which were not possible to do in the first shot. Here the Record On/Off facility for each track would be convenient to complete the prototype. The Record On/Off can also be used to make a quick fix here and there using overdub, replace or punch depending on the situation for the selected track(s) being re-recorded or recorded.

Once we have the desired prototype reasonably well completed in Montage we can move the MIDI file to DAW for further processing.

Such an added recording capability may not require much work for the product development team. The same state of overdub, replace or punch can apply to all tracks being recorded - so no change needed in the overall settings - and no editing capability is asked for which I can appreciate may be rather involved to add.

Erased by Bernd #2

Bernd, agree. I also believe this will help with the recorder issues/discussions and I also believe it is optimistic to believe that even a prototype can be made in one go. After all, we are talking about musicians that want to create and fine-tune which may take a few additional takes. The suggested fix is extremely simply - just toggle on or off the recording for each track which should be very simple to implement in the sequencer (it's probably there already) - so the real work is in the user interface, however I still believe this is a piece of cake (I have worked with software engineers for many years and they can do miracles in split seconds, but then we have the QA, of course).

No, I am not Peter Gorges but a hobbyist now living in USA but originally from Denmark, so not far from Germany. Yesterday I saw another Peter showing up in the threads here so I added a picture so I can recognize myself. Not sure why the system uses my first name and not the screen name which I have defined in my account profile to be Peter B.

Bad Mister wrote:

Let us know.

Thanks, Phil. I'm just back from holidays and will get on this and let you know.

Lawrence

Peter wrote:

No, I am not Peter Gorges but a hobbyist now living in USA but originally from Denmark, so not far from Germany. Yesterday I saw another Peter showing up in the threads here so I added a picture so I can recognize myself. Not sure why the system uses my first name and not the screen name which I have defined in my account profile to be Peter B.

Just in case I am the 'Peter' you mentioned I have got myself an avatar to avoid confusion 😉
Regards