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  1. Michael Trigoboff
  2. Vanity Monster Sherlock Holmes The Voice
  3. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  4. Wednesday, 02 May 2018
Sometimes I like to play along with songs on YouTube or archive.org. Since my Montage works as a sound card for my PC, It occurred to me that I might be able to record those songs using some feature of the Montage or Cubase.

What I’ve discovered so far is that the sound enters the Montage on USB Main. It seems to flow straight through and goes out Main L&R. I verified this because I could affect the volume of the song by changing USB Volume and Monitor Volume Main.

Is there some routing trick I can use to capture the audio in either the Montage Recorder or in a Cubase audio track?

The image below shows the current state of my Montage’s audio routing.

https://image.ibb.co/fYvyin/audiorouting.png
Responses (60)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Might be something worth opening in ideascale - more flexible system audio routing using the Yamaha Steinberg USB driver.
I went ahead and created the Idea.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
This could be the solution for your problems
Attachments (1)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Might be something worth opening in ideascale - more flexible system audio routing using the Yamaha Steinberg USB driver.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 3
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
mLAN/FW is an entirely different Driver, entirely different.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
There is no user-serviceable front-door way using the Yamaha Steinberg USB drivers as the soundcard (Windows 10 Audio Mixer default sound output) driver to direct audio to Montage's Digital L/R inputs
I find this shocking, because this is a very simple thing to do when running the Yamaha Steinberg Firewire driver with a Motif XS/XF. That driver supports routing Windows system audio (WDM, non-ASIO) to any of Main L&R, Digital In, or Assignable Output. This is usable even while software like Cubase is simultaneously using the ASIO driver in exclusive mode. It's also possible to route any of the Motif digital outputs to Windows system input.

It's unfortunate that the newest Yamaha Steinberg audio driver is apparently now less capable, 10 years later.
Attachments (2)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 5
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I didn't hear any feedback using the settings in the picture of this post https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/use-montage-cubase-to-record-from-internet#reply-31049

We all have different sound cards and features. That's the "fun" of the PC experience - no two manufacturers or models are identical (unlike Apple which has more of a "lock-down" on the hardware experience). Therefore, I cannot make any real inferences about your setup. You have to supply lots of info.

Echo is usually there because you have a microphone turned on that should not be. Be sure all audio sources that are microphones are turned off. My setup has no microphones turned on - so I hear no feedback. If you need a microphone turned on - then you're going to hear feedback when the speaker output gets recorded into the signal and then comes back out the speakers - just like any other type of feedback. If recording with a mic - the best way to control this would be to use earphones to isolate your audio output to a very small near-field that is not picked up by the mic.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Use a mixer that makes up for lack of routing available by Montage's driver alone. Voicemeeter has been used with success.

That's not the only way, but one which has least compromises overall.

Request to add this function to Yamaha Steinberg USB drivers was made - but that may never happen.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 7
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
It would be nice to have parity in outcomes between the two supported desktop environments (MacOS and Windows). Not necessarily the exact same everything (operating systems have differences you can't avoid) - but at least no loss of functionality from one supported platform to another. I'm not including mobile (which is currently only iOS) since I can understand that's a different world and there is no corollary to iOS as an alternative mobile platform.

There may be a reason for the difference - I know MacOS has enhanced capabilities like Aggregate Audio Devices allowing combining different audio drivers into one. Windows doesn't have this - and that's a difference. However, that doesn't entirely seem what's asked for here (doesn't depend on aggregate devices).

That said - within the bounds of schedule and resources (dev, testing, R&D, etc) - if feasible to offer some parity between the two supported desktop platforms - then parity in experience should be a goal. Not necessarily parity in how you accomplish the task in each environment. Having to add 3rd party "kludges" to get it to work should not be within the target solution set.

I'm not sure how difficult it is to implement as requested - there is a model for sending streams from the Windows System Sounds (including web pages) to Montage's Digital L/R as demonstrated by VoiceMeeter. It's technically feasible. Not sure how the work involved stacks up to other priorities in the chain.

There may be other ways to get this done as well. They seem more "expensive" (resource wise) - but I'm not particular. Such as being able to reassign, on Montage, the Channel-To-Input routing. For example: Montage Input Channel 1=Digital L, Montage Input Channel 2=Digital R, Montage Input Channel 3=Main L, Montage Input Channel 4=Main R, Montage Input Channel 5=Assign L, Montage Input Channel 6=Assign R

However Yamaha can bridge the current gap would be appreciated (if feasible - accounting for resource limitations, etc).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Just one more note: I searched extensively through the Windows Registry looking for something I could change to get the driver to do what I wanted it to. I didn’t find anything I could figure out.

It’s possible that someone at Yamaha could tell us what change to make in some registry key.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Or Yamaha could add the ability we’re talking about to the Windows driver. Apparently they did this on the Macintosh driver, and I don’t see why it would be impossible on Windows.

Can someone from Yamaha forward this (in my opinion) very reasonable request to the software engineers?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
There is no user-serviceable front-door way using the Yamaha Steinberg USB drivers as the soundcard (Windows 10 Audio Mixer default sound output) driver to direct audio to Montage's Digital L/R inputs unless possibly Windows mono mode is used (I haven't tested this with the Yamaha Steinberg USB driver - only the default generic) or certainly by using 3rd party hacks that add another streaming layer to your audio path.

Options (sticking with Windows) are to use 3rd party audio drivers or to use an analog loop-back from Main L/R outputs back to the A/D input. Maybe the mono mode trick if that works.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 11
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
You did not look hard enough, apparently.

In Cubase Pro 9.5
Go to STUDIO > Studio Setup > VST Audio System > Montage
Here you will see the 32 Inputs (yellow) and 6 Outputs (blue)

If you go to STUDIO > Audio Connections > click on the “Outputs” tab
Here you see the default Stereo Out is Audio Device = MONTAGE > Main L and Main R
Click on “Add Bus” > create 1 Stereo Bus
This will create “Stereo Out 2” assigned to the Montage’s “Digital L” and Digital R” returns

All you need do is select “Stereo Out 2” as the Output for the Audio you wish to send back to the MONTAGE’s internal mixer.
I already knew about those Cubase features. The images attached below show how I had them set up when I was trying to figure this out.

You might remember this thread, where I engaged in what one might think of as "stupid audio routing tricks" as part of learning about audio routing.

As part of trying to figure out how to get audio from things like YouTube videos into the Montage or Cubase, I did a lot of experimenting with those two windows. But nothing I tried worked. No matter what I did, the digital audio would enter the Montage on the Main bus instead of the Digital In bus. And that Main Bus only seems to go to Main L&R analog output.

As far as I can tell, the problem is that when a Windows PC is set to use the Yamaha USB ASIO Driver as its sound card, the digital audio is always directed to the Main bus on the Montage and there doesn't seem to be a way to direct that digital audio to the Digital In bus instead.

I could be wrong about this. I'd be happy to be wrong about this. Is there actually a way to "... select “Stereo Out 2” as the Output for the Audio you wish to send back to the MONTAGE’s internal mixer" so that digital audio coming out of a web browser gets directed to the Main digital input bus on the Montage?
Attachments (2)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 12
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
BM, that's not exactly going to solve the request. The problem isn't creating an output bus from Cubase to Montage's digital L/R inputs -- the issue is simultaneously feeding the computer noises (like Youtube or any other sound the computer makes) into the audio inputs of Cubase when only a single ASIO driver can be selected at a time in Windows. If the Yamaha Steinberg driver as an audio interface for the PC allowed to control audio output not only to Channels 1&2 (Main L/R) but also to any channel - then this would be solved. However, the use-Yamaha-Driver-as-a-PC-soundcard forces audio routing out Main L/R. On the Montage side - outside of using an analog loopback cable back to A/D in - there is no way to "re-route" the Main L/R digital input.

Cubase can play audio straight to Montage's digital L/R inputs (channels 2,3) - but the issue is getting the computer sounds into Cubase's stereo inputs.

It does appear that Voicemeeter (or something similar) - which makes up for lost control of the Yamaha Steinberg USB driver for PC-Soundcard audio routing - is required in order to get PC-Soundcard streams into Montage's Digital L/R.

The other option would be a little round-about. You could use something like ASIO4ALL to enable recording your soundcard (Realtek, or ...) audio in Cubase as an audio file. Then switch drivers to the Yamaha Steinberg USB ASIO driver to play what you just recorded back out - setting up your stereo out bus properly.

This all is part of what I've commented on in the past about lack of routing flexibility which does complicate things a bit. For now, Voicemeeter is the best option for doing this although I'd probably "not trust" having Voicemeeter in the audio chain unless I absolutely needed it for short bursts of targeted work.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 13
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I looked around a lot in Cubase Pro 9.5.21 and did not find any way to do what Voicemeeter does (direct a PC audio source to the Montage's Digital In bus).

I was surprised. I also had thought it would be possible in the DAW without Voicemeeter. Apparently that thought was incorrect.
You did not look hard enough, apparently.

In Cubase Pro 9.5
Go to STUDIO > Studio Setup > VST Audio System > Montage
Here you will see the 32 Inputs (yellow) and 6 Outputs (blue)

If you go to STUDIO > Audio Connections > click on the “Outputs” tab
Here you see the default Stereo Out is Audio Device = MONTAGE > Main L and Main R
Click on “Add Bus” > create 1 Stereo Bus
This will create “Stereo Out 2” assigned to the Montage’s “Digital L” and Digital R” returns

All you need do is select “Stereo Out 2” as the Output for the Audio you wish to send back to the MONTAGE’s internal mixer.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 14
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Going the other way (publishing a stream to the web), I stumbled on some mixer app streaming on the xbox where some players and DAW artists where noodling and working with DAWs live. So I tried that using both Cubase and a standalong visualizer as a "game" to broadcast a stream. It works pretty much out of the box, but I did notice that one guy was streaming with super high fidelity, vs the ok lower fidelity my stream was generating. Not sure if putting that mixer in between would provide the full audio range.... another test for a rainy day. But its pretty cool to be able to jam live and stream without too much fuss.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 15
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The reason I followed this is because I'd think a machine with a DAW would leverage the DAW for Audio routing ...
I looked around a lot in Cubase Pro 9.5.21 and did not find any way to do what Voicemeeter does (direct a PC audio source to the Montage's Digital In bus).

I was surprised. I also had thought it would be possible in the DAW without Voicemeeter. Apparently that thought was incorrect.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 16
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Excellent!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 17
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Very cool, I kinda discovered that playing youtube on the pc while connected to montage / speakers was very handy. When I saw this initial post, it seemed that recording the track seemed so close yet so far. Keeping for rainy day when I want to Jam with and record with the Tubes. How fun:p
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 18
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Glad something worked. The main idea is to get the digital channels Ch3/Ch4 (Digital L & Digital R) to have audio sent there without requiring a DAW installed. VoiceMeeter was the only thing, thus far, I found to do this (in stereo). Windows alone can do this in Mono mode - but you lose spatial separation. And again, Cubase should be able to handle this with proper settings. My DAW machine is in transition, so I can't run through that. I personally would not use VoiceMeeter on a machine I had a DAW installed due to the extra software stage.

EDIT: I see what the difference is. I installed this on a machine with no Yamaha Steinberg USB driver installed. In this configuration, Montage will attach to Windows using standard drivers. Unlike the Yamaha Steinberg USB drivers - the standard drivers will install the "MONTAGE Line" device with 6 channels. The Yamaha Steinberg "MONTAGE Line" instance will only have two channels. The sound properties look different too.

In both cases, VoiceMeeter needs to be the default Audio Output device. When VoiceMeeter is installed - this is set by default (which is why I didn't call it out).

I've installed the Yamaha Steinberg USB driver and can confirm that selecting the ASIO driver as you've outlined is required to get the 6-channel output (from PC to Montage) to "engage" - and the rest of the instructions apply.

The reason I followed this is because I'd think a machine with a DAW would leverage the DAW for Audio routing -- and some random machine with youtube assumed no DAW installed - so I also assumed no Yamaha Steinberg USB drivers installed.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 19
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I installed Voicemeeter and set it up the way you suggested. It didn’t work on my rig.

So I set it up a different way and got it to work. In the Windows 10 Sound Control Panel, I set Voicemeeter to be the default sound device. Then in Voicemeeter I set A1 to be the Yamaha USB ASIO driver. I was a little queasy about putting Voicemeeter between the Yamaha driver and my Montage, but everything seemed to work OK.

I have no idea why it works one way for you and another way for me. But at least it works. Thanks so much for pointing me in the direction of Voicemeeter.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 20
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