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  1. Sean
  2. Sherlock Holmes The Voice
  3. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  4. Thursday, 01 June 2017
I have a Roland FC-300 which I have set up to send control change
message 95 to successfully control the super knob. I've got several
songs in a Live set all ready for my gig. Each of these will have the
super knob initial position in a different place.

Here's my issue. After playing a song, I switch to the next
performance in the Live Set for the next one. But I may have left the
foot controller fully pressed. If the initial position for the SK is
at 0 for the next song, as soon as I move the foot controller, the SK
jumps to that position. What I'm wondering is if there is anyway to
have the super knob behave like the sliders, where I have to move the
foot controller back to "grab" the current position and then move it
forward.

Thanks for any help
Responses (19)
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Maybe I'm missing something or I didn't read this correctly...

To what is the Roland FC-300 plugged into?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I have a Yamaha FC-7 and the behavior is the same. The observation is that unlike slider controls, which has "hysteresis" meaning you first have to make the physical controller cross the internal/set value of the controller before the physical slider "grabs" the parameter to start affecting it - the Superknob control has no such hysteresis.

The only part it shares in common with sliders (and other such controls) is that when you program change (load a new performance) - the value of the controller is not instantaneously set to the position of the controller (FC-7 in my case). However, as soon as you move the controller - the value will instantaneously set to the controller's physical position WITHOUT crossing the current set point (no "grabbing", "catching";) when Superknob is controlled with an expression pedal.

So the wish is that the expression pedal would employ a hysteresis ("grabbing";) feature when controlling the Superknob..

The answer to the user is that it does not.

The remedy (what works in the here-and-now) would be to be more intentional about the foot controller at the end of tunes. I had to do this when I used my MO6 (with sliders) - I had a specific pattern I had to set all sliders to after each song to ensure the next tune would work correctly. I programmed each performance so that the slider position I chose would allow for instant control in the direction I wanted (so with 4 sliders, I set the first two all the way down and second two all the way up).

Applying this to superknob, all performances I would say setup so "0" is the default position if that's easiest to do - or "127" if full toe is easiest to do. Then at the end of a tune - when no notes are sounding and you're changing performances, flick your heel to the correct reset position.

It's better to set this up even if the "grabbing" feature worked. Because in the heat of the moment, to do a double pump on the foot controller can throw you off.

FYI - this testing is done with FC-7 connected to the FC2 port as this defaults to Superknob control.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 2
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
It is strange. This is not the behavior on my Montage 6.
I have a MGear EX-P connect to Foot Controler 2 and there is always "grabbing" if I change performance or modify manually the SK.
This is not the case if I program the pedal on my Yamaha MFC10 to send controller 95 and send it via PC then midi/usb.
In this case (sending via Midi and not by Foot Controler 2 jack) there is no grabbing.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
BM, Jason
Thanks for the replies. My Roland FC-300 is a midi controller - so it is connected via the 5 pin MIDI connection - and sending CC 95.

So looking at the link you sent, BM, does this mean that the FC 7 connected directly to the foot controller port does behave as I want. It looks like the method I'm using with MIDI CC 95 doesn't do it.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 5
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
@Jean,
Which is why I asked, to what was the Roland FC300 connected?

@Sean
So looking at the link you sent, BM, does this mean that the FC 7 connected directly to the foot controller port does behave as I want. It looks like the method I'm using with MIDI CC 95 doesn't do it.
Correct. The hook thing is because the pedal is directly in touch with the synth engine. Via MIDI is different from controlling something direct.

MIDI cannot "hook" the value, in this case. As soon as a value for the cc is sent, wham, all devices jump to the value.
Controlling something via MIDI is similar, but not always the same as controlling it directly.

Extra Credit: The article covers FC7 and Super Knob behavior: Mastering Montage: Super Knob Bipolar
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
BM
That makes sense - how can the synth know what the intention or source of the MIDI messages are. It could not assume that it should wait for the "hook".

I think I will just have to try to remember to reset my foot controller after every song to 0, as Jason previously suggested.

Thanks again.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 7
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Or you can, next time you feel you deserve it, give yourself a gift: get yourself a Yamaha FC7 pedal. (If you gig, it's tax deductible!)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I didn't change my mind. The previous thread I was helping another user explaining what they were observing - using their feedback to calibrate the answer but not testing myself. Now I'm using my own stuff and making my own observations. Who knows - maybe this changed in firmware. Wonder what firmware the OP is using. If they can get into the "Chris zone" - whatever setup he was using - then this would presumably become a non-issue. Or maybe the "rev" comment from Chris threw me off because it sounded more like catching the value as a "touch" back to a reset position doesn't seem to imply going back and forth where "rev" does.

At any rate - no revving required. Just a one-direction sweep in the direction of your favorite reset position.

If you have an organ swell pedal - you've got to set that thing to something reasonable even if you end with a loud shout chorus - so it's not much different. Even though I understand you're dealing with a 2nd variable (superknob default). The general principle that you have to set this thing to a good starting point between songs applies the same to an expression pedal linked to superknob as it does a swell pedal attached to an organ.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
BM,
I usually don't take much persuasion to buy more kit. But the FC-300 has two programmable expression pedals as well as lots of other switches. I have it programmed to operate the super knob, switch scenes, start and stop the main arp. I even have one of the switches set up to play the "applause" sound on the Montage in the event of a quiet audience :)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Roland has good pedals which seem to integrate well with non-Roland gear. Since the interface is MIDI - I don't see an issue here. Seems that FC-300 vs. the FC-7 is a bit of an apples-to-orange comparison. Not sure if Yamaha has a similar MIDI pedal which has digital (not analog) expression pedals and other programmable switches. If so, this would be a better comparison and choice of alternative. If not (meaning Yamaha doesn't offer such a thing), keep buying Roland accessories (or any other company which offers solutions to your needs).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 11
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
If you would rather, as you expressed, have the Super Knob NOT jump to the current value, then you'll need to connect an FC7 pedal directly to one of Montage's two Foot Controller jacks. (Not via MIDI). The operating system has not changed how this worked, it's worked like this from day one.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 12
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
In my case I have a Yamaha MFC-10 for changing scenes, sending ASS1 and ASS2 via switchs and sending modulation and after-touch via pedals (as I play my Montage6 from Moxf8).
But as MFC-10 (and FC-300) connect via Midi and as I prefer the "grabbing" behavior for SuperKnob, I have another pedal (not a Yamaha in this case, but no matter) connect to Foot Controller Jack 2 on Montage.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 13
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
BM - maybe I've got a faulty Montage or a faulty FC7 or faulty settings.

Here's the setup:

1) Yamaha FC-7 expression pedal plugged into Montage Foot Controller 2 port
2) Tried MIDI mode as USB and MIDI (5-port DIN) since I see lots of pictures you send you have the mode as 5-port DIN. Just trying to minimize possible differences. I didn't think this would make any difference - it doesn't.
3) Prior to power-off, my Montage was set to the preset "CFX + FM EP" - when Montage powers back on it will recall this last performance before powerdown
4) Starting from a power cycle (powered off, power on) - I begin the test (FC-7 in full toe position prior to power on):
5) Upon power up, "CFX + FM EP" performance (preset) is active and the default superknob position is zero (0). My FC-7 is still in full-toe position so the two settings are in perfect "dis-alignment" to do the next test step
6) I move the FC7 just a hair towards the heel position. Certainly not crossing the "0" setting. What I observe is superknob jumps to a value near 127
Note: at this point I haven't touched the touchscreen or any buttons and kkeyboard defaults to the [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) screen for me.
7) I touch "Motion Control" -> "Super Knob" and see the current super knob value is 121.

... so the "grabbing" feature as you say has worked for you since day one doesn't behave that way here. It "jumped" to 126 when the FC7 movement was recognized past its initial full-toe of 127 and my foot was only "sensitive" enough to move it back to 121 - so superknob followed the movement from 126 down to 121.

8) I'll do this again - push the FC-7 back to full toe - still on the superknob setting screen I see superknob's value reads at 127 as expected
9) I press [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) to get back to the main screen so the data dial will change the performance
10) Rotate the DATA DIAL one tick clockwise to advance to the next preset performance "CFX Concert". The superknob default value here appears to be 64 - so the current value is 64 while FC7 position is at 127. That's fine.
11) I again place a feather-foot on FC7 to gently move it a degree or two towards the heel position while watching what superknob does
12) What I observe is superknob "jumps" to a position near 127.
13) Again, going to look at the superknob screen to observe the actual value - what I read is the superknob value is 125 this time. So my foot was better at moving the position even less this time. Again, certainly did not cross 64.

Now - there is a possible hardware issue here I suppose. Something called "dirty POTs". We know this from equipment that "crackles" when we turn an analog POT of stereo equipment or our guitars or .... Since the "blade" of the potentiometer (it's a mechanical/electrical device) can have oxidation/corrosion/contamination - when spinning a POT you could actually get non-contiguous values out of the thing so maybe Montage really is seeing a "0" near 127. Or worst case is that the entire pedal can spit out random values through the full swipe. This pedal is fresh out of the box with only a few days worth of use. But "maybe" this is one variable in the "faulty FC7" category of possibilities.

I'll try to account for that with the next test. I'm going to rotate the DATA DIAL counter clockwise back to "CFX + FM EP" which I know defaults at 0. I'll put the FC7 near the middle position this time and use the "Superknob" screen to see the value is 64 before switching performances

14) Set the superknob to 64 with FC7 at middle position
15) Press [PERFORMANCE] (HOME)
16) Rotate DATA DIAL counter clockwise one tick to recall "CFX + FM EP"
17) Observe superknob is at value of 0 - the default for this performance
18) This time, place feather foot on FC7 to advance the angle closer to the full toe position.
19) Observed as soon as I "touched" the pedal, superknob advanced to what appears to be around position 64.
20) Using touchscreen to see actual value, I see the superknob actual value after the "jump" is 65. A perfect feather foot.

Let me know what I'm doing wrong because if Jean had my keyboard and FC7, they would not enjoy the behavior you are "expressing".

Given I believe your experience, BM - I still think that firmware difference may be a reasonable explanation of why there is a difference in behavior. This is the sort of thing - with all the focus on superknob - that is easy to catch and correct from a firmware perspective. And you're always sort of ahead of the curve with respect to firmware and were probably at least one rev. ahead of the version that shipped with Montage when released.

I initially noted this is probably the difference without spending much time on it - but the suggestion that no firmware has ever changed this feature has me go through the detailed documentation of what I observe.

Now that superknob has the ability to function as either SYSEX or CC - I wonder if that setting makes any difference in behavior as well.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 14
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
@Jason
I don't know, but the simplest, if you can, is to try another pedal (even no Yamaha).
(As you mentioned possible hardware issue, I have already encountered erratic behaviors with faulting pedal)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 15
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I could do that - but it wouldn't help anything no matter how the testing goes (I'm not trying to change the behavior on my keyboard - this feature or behavior as is does not present an issue for me). Incidentally, here an EV5 and FC3A - which acts just like an expression pedal with a spring - both have the same behavior as the previous testing.

I'm going to say that if you have the latest firmware and an FC7 that this grabbing works (looks like it does for several). And if some future reader with an FC7 sees it doesn't grab - upgrade/check firmware as a first step and retest.

I think I've tested enough that it's unlikely any fault of the expression pedal although there is a very low probability chance that the FC7 I happened to have escaped QA/QC testing. I doubt it - although stranger things have happened.

If Sean wants to abandon the pedal position "discipline" approach - and wants to add another piece of gear under the keyboard - then the FC7 or any number of other analog "POT" based expression pedals will fit the bill and provide the "grabbing" initially requested.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 16
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
@Jason:
In case you continue your search, my Montage firmware version is 1.51.1
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 17
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Jason
I understand the FC7 should solve the issue but as it stands the FC300 takes up all of the space under my studio desk. As I said, that does quite a lot for me so I'm not going to replace it with an FC 7 and don't have room for both. So discipline it is!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 18
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
As mentioned, I'm not searching. Just trying to make sure information provided is correct and takes into consideration root causes for observations to help posterity.

Sean - discipline is probably better because the grabbing thing is something a "natural" instrument doesn't do - so if you are accustomed to analog stuff - you have to relearn some things to deal with that feature. If grabbing is appealing or not depends on your reflexive gesture and if it aligns with the digital re-do.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 19
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