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  1. John
  2. The Voice
  3. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  4. Saturday, 20 February 2021
I've attached a photo showing my current setup with the speakers indicated. Whilst I know this setup is far from ideal, it does a job for me and I mostly listen via headphones anyway.

But, I would like to replace the current speakers (Castle Avon floorstanding hifi speakers coupled with an old Denon AV amp) with some decent ones.

I've been looking at the Yamaha HS7 and HS8 speakers and am wondering how they might work in my current setup?

Yes I know I'm sat very near the right hand speaker and the left one is over in the other corner. I also realise that putting speakers in corners might not be ideal, but it's the only option I have at the moment and for the forseeable.

If I did purchase a pair of yamaha speakers, can you get stands for them so they can be lifted higher than desk level?

It should be noted that I'm a hobbbyist and not looking for mixing perfection etc :)


current speakers.jpg
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Responses (33)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
First things first, you've got a very beautiful set : ModX, Montage, Sub or Susequent 37, at right it seems to be a Prophet Rev2 16, for the one above, is it a Vermona ?

Well, you're right Hi-Fi system is not the best config. You should look for amplified speakers designed for studio, the most flat and accurate response as possible.
Yamaha HS are good ones, with a bass speaker it's better. Considering the space you have, choose proximity speakers.

Many people use Adam speakers wich are very good. You could attach them on the wall. with adjustable brackets. That way, you would save some space on the floor.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 1
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First things first....

The location shown in your picture for your pair of loudspeakers is simply unbearable...to me...profound music lover.

Speakers have tweeters and they are supposed to be at ear level or pointing toward your ears (exactly behind your neck for a wide soundstage). Dispersion and directivity are so important that you will be astonished by the ample variation they offer as you move up, down, left, right, far, close.

Base and sub-base are very much affected by room acoustics, and there are rules that give you a point to start placing the towers and go moving them little by little until finally the magic is achieved. Distance from rear wall should be enough (more on these later) and distance to lateral walls should be at least twice that.

Rear distance: the minimum should be 35% the speed of sound divided by the low frequency cut-off (-3dB).
Exception: if you are using a speaker going down to 12-16 Hz @-3dB they can be placed almost touching the rear wall.

Speed of sound at 15-20-25 Celsius is 340-344-348 meters per second.
Assuming your loudspeakers go down to 25-30-55 the distances are....
Well, just resuming...for a 55 cut off listening at 25 Celsius...0.35x348/55=2,21 meters.Make it 2.22.

So we start at 2.22 m from the rear, toed in toward the back of our head and being the distance from one speaker to the other the same than from each to our ears. Right speaker 30 degrees on your right, left speaker 30 degrees on your left...60 degrees each angle...equilateral triangle. Three equal distances.
Tweeters at ears level or pointed to them by some tilting.
The toe in will avoid much of the reflections from side walls, so placing them at equal distance from them will help much.

Also, your studio looks empty.
Walls are nude.
Acoustics will greatly benefit from wood, paper, books, wood furniture...carpets.
Pay attention and you will see that even relative humidity will affect the lowest frequencies emanating from the subwoofers...My settings change from summer to winter.
Move a chair from here to there and the sound will not be the same...
Make sure you sit at more than 3 meters away from the wall behind you when playing so as to lower as much as possible the frequency affected by the reflected waves.
The more books there, the better for absorption...


I use headphones when not alone, just to play, but composing must be done with loudspeakers. The difference is so great that all the work performed with headphones must lately be adjusted because level, presence, warmth...so many things, nuisances, are so clearly different I decided not to spent another single second repeating the hard work.

For headphones....

https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq/blob/master/results/RANKING.md
.........................................

If after all that you still think a new equipment is needed...

Avoid plastic woofers... Violins and banjos are not to sound as plastic cans.
Avoid metal woofers...Flutes and taikos, made from wood are not to sound as if built out of steel or iron.


I heard HS7 in a YouTube comparison and didn't like it at all.
HS8, on the contrary were fine.

About HS7....

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/yamaha-hs7-review-studio-monitor.19761/

Lower budget ...HS5.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/yamaha-hs5-powered-monitor-review.10967/

From Adam....

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/adam-t5v-review-studio-monitor.18122/

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/adam-s2v-studio-monitor-review.11455/


Best performance...HEDD has just released version 2...

https://hedd.audio/mk2-studio-monitors/

It is said Golden Ear will show any soon an active version of their famous Triton...


If you finally go via passive speakers, have a look on this great monoblocks...State of the art at reasonable prices.

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/power-amplifier/audiophonics-mpa-m400et-amplificateur-mono-class-d-purifi-1x400w-4-ohm-p-14951.html

A review of the amplfiers themselves (not the final unit per maker) is here...top notch....

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-purifi-1et400a-amplifier.7984/

Enjoy...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks for the replies so far :)

More information from me....

The Moog is a Sub37 and the synth on the top on the right is the DSI Pro2 :)

I'm not sure what's meant by 'proximity speakers'

I don't play any hifi through these speakers, they're only used for my synths.

I want to get rid of the Denon amp and current speakers from the equation, I will move them upstairs into my office.

This room is NOT a studio, it's one end of my lounge so will never be great acoustically.

You may have noticed I have a Yamaha mixer and my aim is to run some speakers like the HS7/HS8 speakers direct from the mixer.

I may be able to place the left hand speaker between the computer desk and the Montage/MODX when I get new speakers - I might move the computer desk further to the left.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 3
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Still shopping for a Montage so that is my stage piano in the picture. I have a pair of Yamaha HS7 and work great for practice space even quiet late at night. I wish I got the Yamaha HS8's but wasn't sure it they would be too big for the small space I have. My setup having the two small tables on each end not only put the speakers at a good height and angle (have isolation pads that angle the speaker a bit). Having the desk space at my sides for recording gear, manuscript paper and misc stuff helps. The Yamaha HS7 are plugged directly into my piano for simple setup. When I get more gear I will get a small mixers and plug the speakers into the mixer. I think using the monitors instead of typcial stage amps or powered speakers give me better low end for the size room and volume I play.
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  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 4
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Cheers Steve, that gives me a good idea of what size the HS7 speakers are. It's very difficult to picture it from shop photos and dimensions :)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 5
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
"This room is NOT a studio, it's one end of my lounge so will never be great acoustically."

and

"I'm not sure what's meant by 'proximity speakers' "


Well, this is precisely what proximity speakers are for...

You sit so close to them (near field) that the environment nearly has no influence in the sound since you will hear the sound they produced much sooner than any coming a bit later from the reflecting walls...

But you can do the very same with your current equipment...
Believe me, do a bit of what I said before and you will probably discover the gem you already have.

Start simply by placing each tower to the very side of the Montage...and play. Hear the difference, that surely must be there...Tilt them a bit backwards for the tweeters to aim at you ears...Toe in a bit aiming at the back of your head...

My Mythos ST go down to 14 Hz...


Fantom 8. Philips 100 w. Mythos ST.jpg

Tweeter high enough...

MythosST.png

You could always aim at a deeper bass capable speakers, such as GoldenEar Triton Reference Loudspeaker, that extend to 12 Hz...

Or subwoofers that promise even 11 Hz.

But... considering we are making music I go the following way:

Tuning fork... let's start at 440.
Frequency of a note= 440x2^[(MIDI number-69)/12]
Since A4 MIDI 69 is 440, A0 MIDI 21 will be 27.5.
We want to use the full capability of our speakers.
Mythos ST offer 14 Hz.
A-1 MIDI 9 is 13.75 Hz.
Making A-1 exactly 14 Hz will call for A4=448.
Yes, 448x2^[(9-69)/12]=14.
Very reasonable indeed.
I can play A-1 via velocity or hold time by adjusting a full octave down on A0. Play A0, hear 28 Hz......hold...hear A-1 at 14 Hz. Lovely, very fulfilling...outstanding feeling. No way back.

If we try the same with 12 Hz, A4 will call for 384 Hz.
Too low, not bright enough...
Versailles, lowest tuning fork in history, was 392.
Baroque used 415, Venecian 466...bag pipes seen at 485.

Also, there is not much musicality below 16 Hz...or so I think. The frequency thereabouts shows a series of beats more than a continuous tone...We don't need a metronome suddenly kicking in (at 600 clicks per minute for 10 Hz).


Ohhhh..I'm a hobbbyist and always look for the very best my hard earn money can bring once spent on keyboards, amplifiers, loudspeakers...whatever.
Attachments (2)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
There's good stuff in the other responses - I'm just going to focus on this:

I've been looking at the Yamaha HS7 and HS8 speakers and am wondering how they might work in my current setup?


I would pull out the speaker from the left side of the desk, slide the desk over, and put the speaker between the desk and MODX/Montage. Then take the lamp off the right-side speaker and perhaps put it on the desk. Then I would put my HS8 speakers one on each of the existing floor-standing speakers using those speakers as speaker stands. Maybe you run your computer audio output through there for the beeps and youtube tutorials and such. The HS8s would be at approximately the right height. Not sure why one speaker is taller than the other (what's under it). You can put one speaker right-side-up and the other upside down or laying on its side to try to get the tweeters even. Or reconfigure what's under each of those floor speakers so they're standing at the same height - however you do this (take something out from under one - or add something under the other).

That's one way to make this configuration work. I have 2 HS8s and in my studio desk chair (where the keyboard isn't) - I have the HS8s positioned pointing at my head. When I'm at the keyboard - the speakers are both behind me - one's further away than the other. Not ideal. This doesn't really bother me even though 90% of my time is at the keyboard and 10% at the desk. This would at least put you in better proximity to the speakers than I have setup for myself.

If you want to move the amplifier for those speakers - then it doesn't make much sense to use them just as dead weight speaker stands. You might as well find something else to prop up the speakers onto. Monitor stands tend to be what seems to be inflated. B&H has a different name slapped on to what other places market as "On Stage" monitor stands with a triangular base. These go for $80 generally as "On Stage" - but are $50 as the other name at B&H (and look to be identical). Sales sometimes you can find "stupid deals" (trademark Musician's Friend) or other finds (pawn, Ikea, whatever). You may even have a couple cat scratching posts that are the right height in your basement. This much I don't know about what you have or what you want to do.

This doesn't dismiss the other gear suggestions. When I bought the HS8s - I knew I liked Adams better by doing mainly taste testing (... the ear kind). It didn't take much to find a reputable authorized retail store that would sell me new HS8s at a great discount for a pair -- so I took the savings vs. Adams and invested in other things. I'm not regretting being so far away from aural perfection (not that Adams is that - we're talking relative terms).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 7
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
...I'm not sure what's meant by 'proximity speakers'


Proximity speakers deliver all their spectrum abilities on a very short distance. (The very well known vintage home studio proximity speakers where the Yamaha NS10-M.) They are specially designed for an accurate mixing.
On the contrary, Hi-Fi speakers ask the listerner to be at a good distance from the speakers in order to get the right stéréo image.

I don't play any hifi through these speakers, they're only used for my synths.

Yes, ok, but nonetheless the Castel Avon series are Hi-Fi speakers, very good ones but they are not designed for a proximity studio purpose.

This room is NOT a studio, it's one end of my lounge so will never be great acoustically.


Yes, that's the case. Most of the time, we are using a part of a lounge or a bedroom or whatsoever. We don't have enough space or enough money to use a room specially dedicated to a studio. Some are recording their voice in their shower stall !!
Anyway, we can call this part a "Home Studio", and we can do a good work in it.

Using proximity speakers make the room acoustic issues less problematic. Another way is to operate the mix with good mixing headphones (headphones with a linear response and not Hi-Fi headphones !! Like Beyerdynamic DT-770 Pro).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks everyone, plenty of things for me to consider now :)

I might have to wait until after lockdown to move the desk and speaker because, ideally, i'd like someone here to help me lift the desk and move it along.

The current speaker should be at the same height, it's probably a trick of the camera that makes them appear to be at different heights!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
A "phone book" or two on the right back corner of the desk will accomplish the same thing for a makeshift solution on that side.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
In my experience, at least in the U.S., "proximity" speakers are called "near field monitors" - maybe that term is more familiar to the OP.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 11
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In my experience, at least in the U.S., "proximity" speakers are called "near field monitors" - maybe that term is more familiar to the OP.


Oh, yes your're right ! I guess you call it "Direct-field Monitors" too : https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/direct-field/
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 12
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Another option I've just thought of.... I could place the speakers on the other wall either side of the DSI synths :)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 13
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
John,

stop thinking...and move both, yourself and the loudspeakers.
Connect them.
Play.
Hear an decide if you like it.
Regardless, move them a bit more...toe in, tilt them, get them closer, further...
Feel the nuisances arising and disappearing...
Mind the volume, never above 85 dB at peaks...
Enjoy.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 14
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If they weren't so heavy then I would have tried them in different positions already :)

Each speaker weighs over 40lb and they are awkward to move by myself due to their weight, shape and the fact they they are on spikes so I can't drag them across the carpet!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 15
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Well I'm back to this again now! One of the speakers has developed quite a rattle from the bass cone when any kind of bass sound is played so I have to do something :)

I'm still trying to decide between the HS7 and HS8. I don't know if the HS8 speakers will be too big?

I suspect that the sound quality from the HS8s will be better though and I am the kind of person who prefers to buy the better option if possible.

The room that I'm in is about 10 and a half feet wide and 19 feet long although my synth gear is just at one end. I'm not looking for loud volumes but would like good sound quality without spending a fortune. The HS8 speakers would be the top of my price range really because I still mostly play through my headphones.

So the question is, should I just go for the HS8s? What would you all do?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 16
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Get the 8's

They have a flatter curve, that goes better and further into bass territories, which helps enormously with a capable, multitimbral instrument.

Every review also points out that the 8's are louder, but it's really that flatter curve, for further, that's way more important.

Especially for piano sounds and anything to do with FM sounds.

And the 8's are almost an industry standard, you can rely on them.

Whilst the 7's are really 6.5's, and made to fit a market segment and price point rather than be the industry standard that the 8's aim to be.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 17
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Get the 8's

They have a flatter curve, that goes better and further into bass territories, which helps enormously with a capable, multitimbral instrument.

Every review also points out that the 8's are louder, but it's really that flatter curve, for further, that's way more important.

Especially for piano sounds and anything to do with FM sounds.

And the 8's are almost an industry standard, you can rely on them.

Whilst the 7's are really 6.5's, and made to fit a market segment and price point rather than be the industry standard that the 8's aim to be.



Thanks for the reply and it pleases me to read this so it must mean that I really do want the HS8 speakers!! I'm hoping that with the bigger drivers, the mid tones will be better handled than on the smaller speakers, but that's me guessing to be honest :)

I started to move the stuff around this afternoon, the computer desk is now in the left hand corner which leaves me room to place the speakers in 1 of 2 positions and I'm still not quite sure which one will be best. For neatness they might be better off either side of the DSI synths but if I place them either side of the Yamaha synths it might be best as I tend to play those more than the others.

I need to deicde on one position to start with and then see how it goes. If it doesn't suit, I'll try the other position.

There is a bit of cunning thought here too because I've always been limited to the size of keyboard I can buy with the Montage 6 being the longest I could fit in there. If I place the speakers either side of the DSI synths on the right hand wall, that means I have a lot more space on the back wall for a longer keyboard :D ;)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 18
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I've been looking into cables and I assume the connecting the speakers to my MG10XU mixer by XLR cales would be the preferrable option?

I've searched my usual places and every time I search for XLR monitor cables it gives loads that seem to be microphone cables.... are they the same thing? Can any microphone cable be used to connect the monitors to the mixer?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 19
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
XLR describes the type of connector. This the basic/familiar 3-pin connector (hot, cold, ground). In general, the type of connectors is more important then the exact type of signal... you will find XLR (sometimes called “Cannon” connectors after the company that first made them) are used for several different type os signal..

The description “monitor cable” is not really used. You can connect your mixer to your monitors using a standard XLR cable — it is “balanced”, meaning any interference will travel through both the hot and cold wires, but be cancelled completely by the ground.

What you need to know is a standard 3-pin female-to-3-pin male cable is what you need. Most commonly referred to as a “Mic cable” in common language.... but used in any situation you need to send balanced audio signal over a distance (interference-free). The Mixer is sending Out, the Monitor speaker is receiving signal In.

The 1/4” TS (Tip-Sleeve) “unbalanced” cables used for keyboards, guitars, basses, etc, are commonly called “guitar cables” or “signal cable” with male Phone connectors on each end (the “phone” refers to when used to ‘patch’ old style telephone switchboards - their original use).

When it comes to cables and connectors, it is always best to ask when you don’t know. There are many conventions and protocols. An important and sometime HARD LESSON, occurs when you use the wrong type of cable in a critical situation. Just because the connector fits does not guarantee it is the correct cable for the task.. Trust me.

This is where your preferred music store retailer can be invaluable.
Any musician who has even worked part-time in a music store for a week, learns that knowing the differences in cables is a very important thing to get under your belt immediately. If you use a “speaker cable” where a “signal cable” belongs or vice versa, you run the risk of serious trouble.... electrical trouble, even fire or damaged gear.

Not to worry — using a common XLR ‘mic’ cable will be fine to connect the mixer to your monitors!

Extra Credit:
When you really need to be careful is connecting devices like power amps (this is where no guessing is allowed, knowledge is required).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 20
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