YamahaSynth.com Forums

This is the place to talk about all things related to Yamaha Synthesizers!
  1. John
  2. MONTAGE
  3. Monday, 26 August 2019
I am finding that the Montage for Live use as a slave, and DAW applications, such as Cubase, Single performances are the only choice. This is also clear in Bad Mister's training video for using the Montage with Cubase.

While it may be annoying for me to keep harping on this issue, it is tragic for me to live with this issue every day.

I am trying to get a login for ideascape. My VPN may be the issue.

Anyone else finding that singles are the only useful performances for the above applications (Live/SLave and DAW)

John
Responses (12)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
No, I use a combination live. Our usage is probably different, however. I don't slave Montage live. But I do slave in the studio and would typically use single MIDI channel mode because it's easier to switch than other configuration options. Still retaining multj-PART Performances. Although my master controller does support 8 zones so it's possible to accomplish a more seamless master-to-slave config keeping Montage in multi-channel mode.

I do not do any "real" work in a DAW so that usage is not a daily/frequent task. I can make either work fine in a DAW. Single PART Performances require slightly less setup so they are easier to deal with.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Can you please explain why you don’t want to use multis for cubase DAW recording? Thank you
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 2
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Singles are the only way if that is all you know... Bare with me for a minute, I don't want to be argumentative but you are wrong:

The following is done in Cubase Pro 10 using the MONTAGE “Multi Channel Recording” Template

My Performance is as follows:
Part 1 - Real Drums Kit (Single Part Drum Kit)
Part 2&3 - FM Boogie Syn Bass (two Part Bass)
Part 4&5 - FM Saw Pad (two Part Pad)
Part 6&7 - Singleline 2 (two Part Lead)

I will record by using KBD CTRL to control which Parts I am transmitting from, and I will set a corresponding number of Tracks in Cubase to capture what I am transmitting from the MONTAGE - 1 Track to record the Drums, 2 Tracks to record each of the other sounds. The Input Transformer allows me to set the MIDI Channel of the data coming INTO the Track -- and it rejects all but the selected Channel.

Record workflow
I record PART 1 (Drums) to a single track.
On the MONTAGE KBD CTRL is active on PART 1 alone
In Cubase MIDI TRACK 1 is selected and armed.
RealDrums.png

Next I record the 2-Part Bass sound to MIDI Tracks 2 and 3
On the MONTAGE KBD CTRL is active on PARTs 2 and 3
In Cubase MIDI Tracks 2 and 3 are selected and armed.
FMBoogieSynBs.png

Next I record the 2-Part Synth Pad sound to MIDI Tracks 4 and 5
On the MONTAGE KBD CTRL is active on PARTs 4 and 5
In Cubase MIDI Tracks 4 and 5 are selected and armed
FMSawPad.png

Next I record the 2-Part Synth Lead sound to MIDI Tracks 6 and 7
On the MONTAGE KBD CTRL is active on PART 6 and 7
In Cubase MIDI Tracks 6 and 7 are selected and armed
SynthLead.png

Shown below, you can see I'm overdubbing the Synth Lead, using two MIDI Tracks armed in Cubase:
CubasePro10.png

From here you get an idea of the workflow. If I wish to continue, I can use COPY/EXCHANGE to move the already recorded PARTs to clear room for more Multi Part recordings... If I wished to add the 7 PART "Seattle Strings" - I could. As you may know, PART 1-8 allow for simultaneous PART control via the Keyboard. Exchanging PARTs is handed in the MONTAGE using [SHIFT] + [EDIT]... by freeing PARTs 1-8 and adjusting the Channels in Cubase, I can continue to record multi Part instrument sounds.

MIDI is a simple matter of matching MIDI Transmit and MIDI Receive Channels. Saying you "can't" or that Single Part is the only way, is simply incorrect. Drawing conclusions from one video is dangerous... I’m sure I must mention “there is no one-way to work”... but if you are grounded in the fundamentals of MIDI Transmit/Receive you can find ways to work.
For more on using MONTAGE and Cubase please see the following article: MONTAGE and Cubase Pro Workflow

What are your specific issues with using the MONTAGE as a slave unit?
Attachments (5)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks Bad Mister,

I completely did not think of that obvious approach of arming multiple tracks for recording. Thank you!

Regarding the live performance issue as the Montage as a slave and not a master, where the Montage 7 is slaved to my Studiologic SL-88, the multi's are not practical.

Let me explain.

I integrate Blue 3 and IKmultimedia Leslie VST Instrument/Effect. Upper register is Midi ch 10 and lower is midi channel 9 (to stay out of the way of the 8 perf parts in Montage). I use a Studiologic Mixface to control drawbars and zone enable. SL-88 is my Lower register (even though non-hammer-action weighted). The Montage is my upper register that has the flexibility to transmit out whatever channel it wants (thank you very much).

Omnisphere 2.6 is on channel 11-15 (it is a flexible multi-instrument)

The SL-88 is a 4 zone-per-patch controller. Always worked with my Motif. No problem.

One keyboard patch change is the objective.

I love the Bosendorfer Imperial Grand sounds amazing, to me. I love it! However, it is a multi-part instrument. I love playing it using my SL-88 over my Montage 7 as it has more of a piano action. Therefore, 3 of the 4 zones are taken. I am left with only one zone remaining for use. This is not practical, especially if you have a perf that uses 4 or more parts being controlled by the SL-88.

A simple fix, indeed, is a flexible MIDI channel receive
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Or set Montage to single-MIDI-channel mode.

It would be great for incoming MIDI channel flexibility - but that feature doesn't appear to be in the cards.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 5
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks Bad Mister,

I completely did not think of that obvious approach of arming multiple tracks for recording. Thank you!
You are quite welcome. It is true that many folks don’t think of this approach... mainly because they want to fit everything into how they were used to working, instead of approaching things with a fresh approach.

Regarding the live performance issue as the Montage as a slave and not a master, where the Montage 7 is slaved to my Studiologic SL-88, the multi's are not practical.
If the MONTAGE is acting “as a slave and not a master...” why not set the MONTAGE MIDI I/O Mode = Single.
Press [UTILITY] > “Settings” > “Advanced” > “MIDI I/O Mode” = Single
Select a Single MIDI CHANNEL for the MONTAGE. This places all Parts you are using from the MONTAGE on a single channel.
This allows you to play the “Imperial Grand” from a single channel, leaving three others for your SL-88 to control.

Now, that you know about *selecting* multiple tracks, your solution for your live performance issue is only one more head-scratch away.

_ It is not clear exactly what you are attempting. But, in general, if your controller can send Out on four Zones, then let the MONTAGE occupy just one of them, on a single channel (you can re-transmit via a MIDI Track set to Receive Input on that one selected Channel) and it will send MIDI Output to the tone engine on that same channel. Use the Input Transformer to Filter all channels but the one for each device.
_ Use a separate track and channel set to Receive and communicate Out with whatever VSTi’s you want to also play.

The trick is you are going to *select* multiple MIDI Tracks in Cubase Pro simultaneously, each set to Filter (Input Transformer) all but the one channel you designate for Input/Output to that specific device.

Hope that helps.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks Jason,

I am going to explore the single-MIDI-channel mode, and use the scene buttons as a sort of "patch" selection via mute groups. Thanks, again.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 7
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Why not try the “glass-is-only-half-full” solution that I posted?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 8
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Are you using Cubase Pro?
If yes, the “Yamaha MONTAGE Multi Channel Recording” Template already has the Input Transformer setup for the MIDI Tracks.
Below is the LOCAL view of the Input Transformer (setup for MIDI Channel 1).
Module 1 is active. It is setting up a Filter. The Filter Target is "Channel" and it basically is saying if your data is Not MIDI Channel 1 you will not be allowed to pass through to this MIDI Track. It is also Filtering any SYSEX from arriving on this MIDI Track.
InputTransformerExample.png
Do a similar thing for each VSTi MIDT Track you wish to use changing the Filter for the Channel you wish it to see...

Be sure to *select* multiple tracks - With the MONTAGE you are capable of transmitting on multiple MIDI Channels, the result of this is you must activate multiple MIDI Tracks... one for each synth you wish to control.

Again why most people miss this is because they are used to Transmitting from one MIDI Channel and then stacking all the PARTS they play on one Channel. It follows that if you Transmit on multiple channels (as with MONTAGE) you must activate multiple Tracks - each set to receive the exact stream of data you wish it to Receive.

Easy-peazy!
Attachments (1)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks Bad Mister! I have Cubase Pro 10

Your post birthed an idea that is simply fantastic as a fix for my live situation! (I have to integrate my Cantabile Performer 3.0 software to mimic what you indicated above)

Live, I sum channel 1 as channels 1-8 in Cantabile and use the scene buttons to perform virtual patch changes via mute groups. Channel 9 I sum in Cantabile as Channels 9-16 for those channels to be occupied by singles controlled by Part Control, which automatically mutes all other parts but the selected. Control tab lets me decide what CC's to ignore.

So, on my SL-88 "If multi, then MIDI ch 1 and Part Control Button= Ch 1-8 (doesn't matter which channel of the 8)." Scenes are used as virtual patch changes via mute groups. "If Single only, then MIDI ch 9 and Part Control Button 9-16 offers 8 additional 'patch changes'" The Montage becomes a fully functional and flexible slave as such.

In the world of Live performance with integrated VSTi and hardware synths (which I am sure everyone knows, already), the Master/Slave binary is not that simple. I need the Montage to be both master and slave at the same show. SL-88 is only a master.

My suggestion to Yamaha is to create, in addition to Multi or Single mode, a mode that transmits multi, and receives on two channels. Receive channel for 1-8 and receive channel for 9-16. Not necessary, though. I have overcome this with Cantabile for live performances, and Bad Mister's suggestion for recording in the studio. For live, as everyone knows, Patch management is critical, even if Yamaha embraces the Performance paradigm. I have figured out how to have both.

Bad Mister's example with Cubase Pro was another "I could have had a V-8" moment.

Thanks! My resentment toward the Montage is diminishing.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I wasn't allowed to put the same response I put on this thread as the system blocked it for some reason. But my comment is also relevant here.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 11
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I used Camelot on the Ipad for these kinds of things. Works really well!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 12
  • Page :
  • 1


There are no replies made for this post yet.
Be one of the first to reply to this post!
2018 © Yamaha Corporation of America and Yamaha Corporation. All rights reserved.