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  1. Robert
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. Monday, 23 September 2019
I tried the Hybrid mode together with Zone master. I think that maybe I don't fully understand though. Why don't they work at the same time? When I engage zone master, I cannot play from my external keyboard (no sound). When I disengage it, everything works. But then I have the same sound on both keyboards, which obviously I don't want. What goes wrong?
Responses (28)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Motif XF has the capability to freely overlap MIDI channels in Master mode. It's the best Yamaha implementation if this kind of flexibility is needed since you also get all the other benefits (flash memory, latest effects/sounds/etc while maintaining this feature).

Kurzweil and Korg are have MIDI implementations that allow for this flexibility too.

My problem with Fantom (latest gen) is that it crashed when I blew on it. And I haven't seen a firmware release that fixes these issues. So I continue to wait until a minimum level of reliability is proven. What MIDI channels do is secondary to me when there are bigger fish to be fried.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I was afraid that would be the conclusion. Doesn't anybody use the Montage as a live instrument anymore? Without the need for a laptop? I considered this to be the main improvement in version 3.0...


I am totally astonished as to why they chose not to implement freely assignable midi receive channels. It seems ridiculous. Maybe it is just not the way the designers intend the device to be used.

On the plus side, the new Roland Fantom seems to have freely assignable midi receive. P43 in the manual: https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/FANTOM-6_7_8_reference_eng01_W.pdf. So thats something ;)


Hi, sorry to disappoint anyone believing that the new Roland Fantom will solve this issue, because it wont!

I have one at home for evaluation during this week and, yes the 16 zones in a Scene have assignable Rx channels but that won't solve this issue because the new Fantom suffer from the same stupid issue as the previous Fantom generations. Yes, you can layer two or more zones by assigning the same Rx channel to these two zones, and play this layered sound from an external controller, but if you want to have this two-layered sound on the below half of the external controller keyboard and a third zone with the same Rx channel on the upper part of the external controller keyboard, this won't work! All zones of the Fantom assigned to the same Rx channel will be spread out over the whole external keyboard. The defined splits of these zones will be disabled.

Roland have recently added the stupid "Remote Keyboard Switch"-feature to the new Fantom (same as on the FA-series) in a try to fix this, and yes, if you enable this you can use spits- and layers of zones from the Fantom on an external keyboard controller, but what happens is that this will only "clone" the Fantom's own keyboard so the behaviour of your external controller keyboard will be the exact same as on the Fantom. You can't use different layered- and split zones on the Fantom and at the same time have different layered- and split zones on the external controller keyboard, all based on the Fantom as the single source of sounds. Plain stupid!

I have not figured out yet if there is full flexibility on the Yamaha Motif series. If I find out that there is, I will probably go with a Motif 6 of some kind.

Why is it so hard to make it work in the same way as if you use a external synth module, like the Roland Integra 7 for instance!!?? with the Integra 7 you have full flexibility.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks for these very clear responses, and your patience - apologies for raising old issues. I had surmised these facts from the manuals etc. but hadn’t been sure of the situation, here clarified so directly.

(“That’s the (midi) spirit” - yes, and who would have thought that after nearly 40 years we would still be invoking the likes of bipolar curves etc to get around live control in hardware!)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 3
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
please can I ask whether it is possible to assign midi receive channels to Parts. I think I understand that in multi mode they are midi ch 1-16 according to the corresponding Parts, but say for example I want part 1 to receive on Ch2 and part 2 on ch 3?
No. When in MIDI I/O Mode = Multi, each PART transmits and receives on its own channel.

I understand about Zone Master for midi transmit - does this work for receive also?
ZONE MASTER is a Master Keyboard Control function - that, by definition, is TRANSMIT ONLY. It determines when you are transmitting out from the MONTAGE/MODX when using it as your Keyboard Controller. Normally, like any other keyboard you have ever owned, it will transmit out, by default, a MIDI message for each gesture or movement you make on the Keyboard, so that when played back to it, it will recreate in fine detail, exactly what you did. However, when using the MONTAGE/MODX in a situation where you are not documenting all that data, you need a way to control exactly what gets sent Out from the MONTAGE/MODX at any time (most other devices connected to the MIDI OUT of the MONTAGE/MODX wouldn't know what to do with all that data...) Enter the ZONE MASTER function - to tailor, on a Performance-by-Performance basis, exactly what gets transmitted OUT from the MONTAGE/MODX. You want to intelligently control what goes out. You can prevent all but the MIDI data you want to go Out from going Out. Make sense?

I suppose I can move the Parts to the relevant "slots"...
Yes, that's the spirit. If you are transmitting from the MONTAGE/MODX to an external device, any ZONE slot can transmit Out on any MIDI Channel.

ZONE MASTER is about how the Keyboard Transmits as a Master Keyboard Controller. When using a ZONE setup in a Performance you are automatically using Multi I/O.
The MIDI I/O Modes (Single and Hybrid) work, as the name implies, for both IN and OUT, Receive and Transmit. They can be in effect when NOT using the ZONE MASTER function in the Performance.

MIDI I/O Mode = Hybrid (coming in MODX 2.0) will allow the KBD CTRL linked to Transmit and Receive on a single MIDI Channel of your choosing. All of the non-liked Parts Receive and Transmit on their correspondingly number Channel. This is extremely useful when recording a MULTI Part instrument that does not have Arpeggiators involved. You wind up with one MIDI stream of events to edit - and Multi Part can be recorded and played back from a single track of your DAW.

In MIDI I/O Mode = Single, Hybrid - the Arpeggio Output is not transmitted. Only those notes you actually play.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
There's a stack of complaints about lack of MIDI receive channel flexibility since nearly the first Montage rolled off the line and made it into the hands of a player with aspirations to use most external keyboards as a master controller.

Your question is exactly what is discussed - ad nauseam - in previous threads here and elsewhere.

You cannot freely change MIDI receive channels.

There's not the "zone" configuration equivalent for MIDI receive channels.

The limit of what you can do to choose an incoming MIDI channel is to either set all PARTs to the same channel (single mode - which has some limitations on receiving on all channels) - or use the new hybrid mode where you can set all PARTs with keyboard-control=ON to the same MIDI channel (a single MIDI channel) while all PARTs with keyboard-control=OFF will retain their MIDI channel that corresponds to the PART number (like multi-channel mode).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 5
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I think the following question is related to this thread - please can I ask whether it is possible to assign midi receive channels to Parts. I think I understand that in multi mode they are midi ch 1-16 according to the corresponding Parts, but say for example I want part 1 to receive on Ch2 and part 2 on ch 3? I understand about Zone Master for midi transmit - does this work for receive also? (I'll be using an external controller - BeatStep or Behringer fcb1010.) I suppose I can move the Parts to the relevant "slots", but just checking.
Thanks
Peter
(sorry, just realized this is in montage forum, I'm asking for modx but presumably similar routing issue)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Multi-Channel mode works the way it always did with respect to local piano keys, external 5-pin DIN connected devices, and the computer (TO HOST) depending on you have the "USB" vs "MIDI mode set.

3.0 also adds external MIDI devices connected via USB TO DEVICE - so that's a new thing and set of behaviors for each mode (including multi mode). So as long as you don't use that kind of device - it's the same. Obviously USB-connected devices that are not flash drives is a new thing - so these could not behave the same as v2.5.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 7
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
So, if Hybrid Mode is not working out, you can go back to the Multi Mode and have it operate as it did in 2.5, right?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 8
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Does Hybrid Mode relegate parts 1 -8 to a single receive channel and retain the hard coded channels 9 -16? Is there any documentation on hybrid mode?
Not exactly. MIDI I/O Mode = Hybrid takes all Parts actively linked by the KBD CTRL Function and allows you address them on a Single selected MIDI Channel, and whenever you are playing (in communication) with any of these “linked” Parts you will be transmitting on that selected MIDI Channel.

All non-linked Parts Transmit and Receive on their correspondingly number Channel.

If you set HYBRID and choose Channel 12, all KBD CTRL Parts will respond to MIDI Channel 12. If you are playing the MONTAGE keys and any one of those “linked” sounds is selected or the upper [COMMON] button is lit, (for example, you've just pressed the HOME button) all of the linked KBD CTRL sounds are capable of responding. This is the same as when playing most any Factory Performance. You are playing them all - so you bring in by Super Knob, some are under control of Arps, some only sound when press an AsSw, etc... but they are “linked” to be one entity.

If you have the other Part slots filled with other Single Part programs, (each the equivalent of a Motif XF) because they are not linked, they are selectable and playable individually.

If you have 2-Parts “linked” by KBD CTRL, then Parts 3-16 are available as individually selectable synths. This means you can address them via MIDI by transmitting on their Channel.
If you have 3-Parts “linked” by KBD CTRL, then Parts 4-16 are available as individual synths and are playable via MIDI.

If you set the Hybrid Channel to a Channel already occupied by a non-linked Part you will receive an error in the form of an exclamation mark in front of that Channel. For example, if you want to play “CFX Concert” from an external weighted controller - Parts 1, 2, 3 and 4 are linked by KBD CTRL, setting the Hybrid Channel to 12 would mean they receive/transmit on 12. If a Part already occupies the selected channel, !12 will appear, signifying it will be overridden by the “CFX Concert” now occupying Channel 12

The MONTAGE is normally in Multi (MIDI I/O Mode) this allows multiple channel transmit and multiple channel receive.
It also supports the Zone Master Function.

Activating a Zone on any of the 16 Parts of a Performance will automatically override (defeat) MIDI I/O Modes Single and Hybrid.
When Zone is Enabled, the settings you make for that Performance override Hybrid Mode, override Single Mode.
By definition, Zone Control means Multi.

Articles will start to populate the LEARN section shortly...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Does Hybrid Mode relegate parts 1 -8 to a single receive channel and retain the hard coded channels 9 -16? Is there any documentation on hybrid mode?

Thanks
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Maybe in v3.1?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 11
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi Andreas,

It's nice to know that the Roland Fantom can do this (like almost any other synth/workstation).

I am totally astonished as to why they chose not to implement freely assignable midi receive channels. It seems ridiculous. Maybe it is just not the way the designers intend the device to be used.

To me it seems ridiculous if the designers intend not to use the Yamaha Montage with other keyboards in a live set-up without a computer or iPad.

So again, please, fix this issue!
Thank you very much x
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 12
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I was afraid that would be the conclusion. Doesn't anybody use the Montage as a live instrument anymore? Without the need for a laptop? I considered this to be the main improvement in version 3.0...


I am totally astonished as to why they chose not to implement freely assignable midi receive channels. It seems ridiculous. Maybe it is just not the way the designers intend the device to be used.

On the plus side, the new Roland Fantom seems to have freely assignable midi receive. P43 in the manual: https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/FANTOM-6_7_8_reference_eng01_W.pdf. So thats something ;)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 13
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi C,

I think the Hybrid MIDI I/O is not the solution here, unfortunately.

Say I want to use the Montage 6 on top of a Nord Stage 2.

I want to play 'CFX & DX7 & Strings' (say part 1-5 of the Montage 6) on the keyboard of the Nord Stage 2.
And I want to play a split of 'Organ' (from the Nord) and a layer 'Brass and Strings' (say part 6-7 of the Montage 6) on the Montage.

So
Montage 6: | Organ / Brass & Strings |
Nord Stage: | CFX & DX7 & Strings | (sounds from the Montage 6)

How can I do that without a computer or iPad?


(The Nord can send on two midi channels at once)

(On my old Motif XF I just set the midi receive channels of part 1-5 on the same channel and I was still be able to make splits and layers on the Motif XF)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 14
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Have you guys tried the Hybrid mode yet? Try it first
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 15
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
What a great idea, Robert!

Free allocation of midi channels!

Then I can finally use the Montage 6 in my live-setup (without computers or ipads)!

It's about time after 3 years...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 16
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Wouldn't it be great to have a basic feature like free allocation of midi channels? I wonder why nobody ever has thought about that before. Despite around 1000 requests.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 17
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I fail to see the use of so many possibilities for sending MIDI data, and none to receive it. I just want to use my Montage sounds, 2 keyboards, on stage without computer. A basic setup. What a disappointment.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 18
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I was afraid that would be the conclusion. Doesn't anybody use the Montage as a live instrument anymore? Without the need for a laptop? I considered this to be the main improvement in version 3.0...
I use it as a live instrument together with a MODX. I use an IPad connected to the Montage with Camelot. Works pretty well and I was using the IPad for the score sheets anyway. It was even connected via MIDI already because I use some button on the Montage for flipping pages.

Since I am a couple of thousand miles away from home I cannot try the new mode to see if it does everything I need. Will do that next week...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 19
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Press releases read:
Improved MIDI capability with a hybrid MIDI mode makes integrating MONTAGE or MODX with MIDI gear even easier.


Thus far, the example given for how to use this feature is in the context of a DAW (use with a computer). And for that application, it makes sense. It would help to have a few practical examples given as a deeper dive to help users understand if hybrid mode offers any new MIDI configuration options which help interfacing with external single-zone keyboards. Generally that's the sort of gear users have been pushing for more MIDI routing options and are going to be initially looking at Hybrid MIDI I/O mode as something that helps (rightly or wrongly).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 20
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