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  1. Sean
  2. Sherlock Holmes The Voice
  3. MONTAGE
  4. Monday, 30 April 2018
I have encountered problems with some of the performances I have set up with the sound cuttting out occasionally while I am playing -
usually with a drum arp playing along. And I figured was probably down to losing polyphony. Some of the parts in the performance are strings and these have a long release time, so reducing the release time for these did stop the cut outs. i.e. the polyphony is used up until the end of the release time.

But when the sound cut out happens, all of the sounds stop. i.e. it doesn't kill the oldest note, or most recent. They all stop! Is this the sort of behaviour we expect from polyphony cutting out? I do have a sample Performance and 3 bar midi file that can demonstrate this.

Also in the process of trying to figure out which elements have the longest release times, I noticed that the green lights on each of the
elements will stay lit when you press one of the keys. But they all go off at the same time - so if I reduce release time for one of the
elements, its light stays on for the duration of the longest element. Is this the correct behaviour or am I misinterpreting the
meaning of this light?

DSNAP_3.png
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Attached is a sample performance and short MIDI file that demonstrates this sound cut out.
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  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 1
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Given the lack of response to my post, is it correct to assume both these issues are bugs? The lights not going out at the right time is a minor annoyance. But the cut out is a more pressing issue. BM, if you think these are bugs, can you report them to the engineering department or direct me as to how I can do this?

Thanks
Sean
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 2
Bad Mister
Yamaha
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Given the lack of response to my post, is it correct to assume both these issues are bugs?

No. That is not how bugs are defined/determined. I simply have not had time to look into your questions.

Release Time settings of 127... that’s well over a minute and a half, perhaps more. What are you doing? Just curious...

When I get time and am in my studio I will take a look at/listen to it. Are you saying your sound has a Release Time of 127, or that’s just for exaggerated/dramatic effect?

Can you fill all 128 channels of audio playback? (if your asking is that possible? and what happens if you do? Frankly, I dunno) but then again I’ve never attempted to actually play a sound with that Envelope pictured above, so I couldn’t say what happens. What would you like to happen? I would expect a sound that was non-musical in terms of normal play

The green Element indicator lights when an Element is using polyphony. If you leave an AEG Release or if you create an envelope that reserves polyphony unnecessarily, you can have the green indicator stay active long after the sound may have ended. A sample that has a set length (no loop) can have a silly AEG that reserves polyphony far beyond where audio has stopped.

This is why it’s a bad idea when you need a musical “Release Time” to ever think of 127 as a setting.... it’s more for a sci-fi Effect. Putting a Release Time setting of 127 on a snare drum sound would be a waste of polyphony as the snare sound would be long gone before that minute and a half+ passed... and the note returned to the polyphony pool.

Similarly, nothing prevents you from creating an Attack so slow the sample is gone before the envelope reaches a level you can hear the audio...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 3
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BM.
Thanks for your response - please do have a listen to the sample when you get a chance. And listen out for where it cuts out in around the third bar. It sounds to me like all of the sounds are cutting out together and that's a concern.

The setting of 127 for the release time was not what I was using in the performance. I changed it to that in order to make it easy for me to get a screenshot with the lights lit. So don't let it mislead the issue.

The point I was trying to make about the lights going out, is that they all go out at the same time, regardless of the different release times of each element. I would have thought if element 1 had a different release time to element 2, then it would stop using the polyphony sooner and so the light would go out sooner.

Am I correct in assuming that the 128 AWM polyphony is for elements i.e. if I had a single part performance using all 8 elements, then I would be allowed to play max of 16 notes together?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 4
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I should add that the performances I created were pulled from standard factory performances - layering strings, piano etc without changing the original release time.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 5
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation

The setting of 127 for the release time was not what I was using in the performance. I changed it to that in order to make it easy for me to get a screenshot with the lights lit. So don't let it mislead the issue
Well, it certainly does mislead the issue... so, again, not even for the purpose of taking the screenshot...because... Pictures speak way louder than words, anyone looking at that envelope would just conclude you are unaware of just how much time a Release setting of 127 is.

I promise to give it a listen, just as soon as I can, if you post a screenshot of the envelope that I’ll Actually be listening to... Thanks.

A sounding Element uses polyphony. In most cases, the layering of Elements is simply not necessary in building a sound, unless it is an organ sound, where each Element is representing a drawbar (that’s the only time such heavy use of Elements in the same GROUP all sounding at the same time.

The number of Elements does not equal the polyphony... it’s not that simple. Excluding drawbar organ sounds, Elements are usually given a Note Range and a Velocity Range, and only when both requirements are met will the Element sound. Additionally, the XA CONTROL can add more requirements, for example, a certain Element may only sound when AsSw1 is pressed, others only when both AsSwitches are Off, etc., And Elements can be set to different “Element Groups” which tell it when to trigger or not. And Legato play requires a specific set of requirements - a 3-way velocity tenor sax that plays legato, will have a 3-way velocity set of Legsto Elements (sans attack), so the polyphony reserve is very complex and not easily comprehended.

We’ll call “drawbar organ” type layering of Elements, the least efficient way of using Elements... among the thousands of Single Part Programs only the drawbar organs use 8 Oscillators doing the same thing... it works for organs but in general, most instrument sounds are constructed in an entirely different way. (what a waste when the sound your going for is just the first four drawbar...). You’ll discover most sounds use the Elements in a much more musical and efficient way
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 6
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For clarity I am attaching an actual screen shot of *one* of the elements of *one* of the parts - but there are lots at play here (some are hidden in the background waiting to be called in with a super knob/assignable knob but they will also be using polyphony.

Apologies if you thought I was trying to rush you into looking at this - no major hurry on it. I can work around it. I have had this issue of cut off for some time and took a while for me to figure out what was causing it and getting a working sample together.

DSNAP_6.png
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  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 7
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And just in case, the performance I uploaded earlier, does not show the issue on your Montage, I am uploading an mp3 of what I hear.

Just to confirm, I do have the latest OS installed.
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  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 8
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Phil,
Have you had a chance to look at this yet?

Thanks
Sean
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 9
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
- - - - Post moved - - -

Post entered here by mistake (obviously an answer to a reface Question ....
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 10
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Phil
Thanks for your very detailed reply. I have gone through your reply several times and spent hours going through my performance, looking at LFOs, turning off all insertion/system effects etc but the problem still persists. I can't see how an LFO would affect *all* parts (assuming you are talking about the element LFOs) - and that's what seems to happen. We get a sort of a click and all the parts die.

I can mute *any* part and the problem goes away. In fact if I switch off any one element from any part, the problem goes away. I agree with you that this is probably not a polyphony problem - I have tried a different experiment to max out the polyphony and the behaviour seems to be as expected - the oldest note is sacrificed.

But I think something in the system is being maxed out here.
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 11
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