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  1. terry
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. Tuesday, 12 March 2019
I'm trying to make a performance that hast 3 parts, 1 piano 2 strings and 3 organ and have no foot controller volume for piano but have foot ctrl 1 volume for strings and foot ctrl 2 volume for organ and no matter what I try I just can't seem to get this right, I'm missing something here
Responses (25)
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
....or I'm just missing something you've probably already told me
In the “2FC7” example, I only setup the two pedals to be independent Part Volume controls... I did nothing to deal with Sustain pedal behavior.

I personally don’t use Sustain pedal on String sounds, and if I do, then I setup “Decay 2 Level” behavior so that it doesn’t cause all notes to be held (latched) at the Level reached when the pedal is pressed... because all notes played after the pedal is applied are added to the notes already sounding... that can sound like a build up in volume...

For me if a sound does not work alone with Sustain pedal, I don’t ever hide it under under a sound, like piano, that does work. By isolating the strings, I realize that played alone they often don’t sound like something actual String would play. So I adjust its Sustain behavior to match the instrument that does work with the Sustain pedal.

By changing the AEG of the String Pad in the second example (Balad Piano/Str/B3~$) I changed the AEG of the String Pad so that it behaved in a similar fashion to the acoustic piano. Holding acoustic piano notes, as I explained, does not literally “sustain” the piano, it simply prevents the felt dampers from stopping the piano string’s vibration before they ultimately are stopped by gravity and friction. The ear and brain are extremely sensitive to changes in level as small as a dB...

if you recall the “Init” Program, “Init Normal (AWM2)” hitting a Note or two it sounds like a piano... but your ear/brain quickly notice something wrong... it’s an acoustic piano alright, but with an organ envelope. The initialized AEG is Set to behave like an organ... no decay in volume... the Note once turned on remains at maximum volume... your ear/brain is bothered by the fact that the sound is not fading away. Holding a chord is laughably wrong for a Percussion instrument...

Why does the default AWM2 start with this?... It is a natural starting point. ... Waveform 0001 happens to be a piano (quite naturally).
And the default AEG envelope is the “organ”-type envelope... On immediately when Key-On occurs, full volume until Key-Off where there is immediate Off. The Key is just literally an On/Off switch.

Multiple notes played on a sound that doesn’t fade will seem to get louder the more notes that are engaged. But because percussion instruments are always fading in volume, it is not noticed as much...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
ok I made a video to illustrate what I'm talking about
References
  1. https://youtu.be/8sOojfIo34U
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
When I saw the video - I thought maybe this is due to damper resonance being an effect placed on the string PART and somehow the effect is causing this.

My quick way to test for the effects contributing to issues is to turn them off. It's an easy first-pass thing to do if there are gremlins that do not pop out as being caused by something else. I touch the "FX" icon at the top of the touchscreen - then turn off Insertion + System + Master. All effects off. At one point, we had a pushbutton for this. Commentary aside - I find this indeed does fix the volume swell with sustain depressed. Now I turn them off one-by-one to figure out which place to go look. What I find is that insertion effects are the culprit. So I go into PART 2 and look at the insertion effects. I can turn those "off" one-by-one too if both are active by setting InsA or InsB to "Thru" OR pressing the "OFF" button for that effect. That's with Insertion Effects turned ON (globally). Oh, look. InsA is "Damper Resonance" and InsB is "Thru". I know Thru isn't going to react at all to the sustain pedal - but boy did my theory pan out as there's damper resonance as ins 1. I know a piano is a string instruments - but we probably don't want ensemble strings to have a damper resonance effect unless you really want this kind of thing to happen. So turn off InsA or set InsA to Thru. Boom (fist bump).

The point of this soundmondo performance wasn't meant to solve all your problems. It's a starting point to demonstrate something other than effects. We got here probably because PART2 started as a piano and maybe JM tools were used to change the waveform -- or who knows. I'm not sure any of the preset string ensembles have damper resonance. Going through all of the "Strings" category with "Ensemble" (single PART) as the sub-category - none of them do. So you may want to copy the insertion effects from one of these single-PART ensemble strings.

I think it'd be good to get to the point where "silver platter" fixes are not necessary. Where a soundmondo trade doesn't have to be 100% usable - but you can take the pieces that are what you need to solve your issue - and apply them to your own Performances which may be constructed more the way you want them (without these insertion effect "issues" ).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
so damper resonance on the insert was the colporate ,well now I know and I should of looked there, it was driving me crazy the last couple of days, I'm finally getting a handle on this keyboard , you guys have been a big help thanks again
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 4
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Yeah, strings don’t have Sustain pedals and certainly don’t need Damper Resonance... however, there is nothing wrong with science fiction! The behavior of Damper Resonance is programmable. It is to designed to mimic the reverberation inside the sound box of an acoustic instrument. It is generated by the notes you are playing that have been captured by the Sustain pedal. Only when the Sustain pedal is engaged does the Damper Resonance Effect generate its effect. Whether the sound is mixed larger or smaller than the signal causing it is programmable. Whether it makes the behavior lessen in volume or swell the volume is programmable.

The Damper Resonance is like a Reverb but only for notes engaged by the Sustain pedal. If you are copying acoustic piano setting to the strings or pad, consider that Damper Resonance for String sounds (that don’t decay) would definitely fall under the realm of science fiction.

In the “Balad Piano/Str/B3~$” I simply set the AEG of the String sound to mimic the behavior of a piano. I gave it a Percussion instrument’s Envelope. This way it behaves better underneath the piano. It’s a bit sci-fi, strings don’t really behave anything like this... but it allows you play the sound as a piano with a string-like backing.

Since Sustain pedal behavior affects the Damper Resonance — and because we are typically dealing with a sound that would be fading out, if you set the Half Damper setting to adjust the level higher, that’s what you’ll get... when you step on the pedal. On sounds that are not fading out (Decay 2 Level is not going lower) sustain actual latches the Note at a specific Level... engaging more notes will get louder rather quickly. Half Dampering and the Damper Resonance work with the Sustain pedal and are two very pianocentric parameters... when used outside the intended use, you can write your own rules. But understand the behavior as being designed to mimic piano functions related to sound behavior in response to the Sustain pedal.

Thanks for the question...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 5
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