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  1. Salvatore
  2. MODX Series Synthesizers
  3. Tuesday, 24 August 2021
Hello,
i need to connect my MODX 8 as a lower keyboard of my Hammond XK5.
I have already connected the two keyboards with midi and everything works very well; the question is:
Since I use an IPAD connected to the "LINE TO HOST" socket to send the performance changes on the MODX, if I use the MIDI output to control the Hammond, I disable the USB output for the IPAD; I ask you if it is possible to memorize in the performances also the use of the outputs if MIDI or USB, or if you have another idea to propose.
Thank you all :D
SAL.
Responses (13)
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi Salvatore,
You are trying to setup a situation where your gear is playing the “telephone” game, the iPad is talking to the MODX and the MODX is talking to the organ. That kind of daisy-chain is not going to work for you as ideal. And to answer the question, no the MODX is not going to memorize the USB/MIDI selection per Performance.

In musical situations you want one “conductor” or in the words of MIDI 1.0 one “master” — all other devices listen to it.

The reason the orchestra conductor is visible by all the musicians is so each can directly interpret the messages… you don’t just conduct the first violinist and expect all others to follow the violinist’s lead. It’s important to establish communication with both devices from your single controlling source. Here’s a method…

In an article discussing Camelot Pro (one of the premiere programs for handling stage setups)… you’ll see the most flexible arrangement (diagram on page 4) in the article. The significant thing is the iPad is connected to a (powered) hub, which then addresses both keyboards individually. Immediately you can see that the iPad becomes the “conductor” and you can with a single setup tell each what they need to do for each Program, and you can setup communication between the two devices.

Link — Music Production Guide 04_2019…Camelot Pro
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MODX Series Synthesizers
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hmmm... I"m not sure he really wants to do the telephone game here. It sounds to me like he's not looking to have the iPad send data to the MODX and have the MODX pass it along (dasiy-chained) to the Hammond. Rather, it looks to me like he simultaneously wants to do two different and unrelated things...

1. have the iPad change sounds on his MOX (currently being done via USB)
2. have the MODX function as a set of lower manual keys for his Hammond (currently being done via 5-pin MIDI connection)

and it looks like he can't do both simultaneously, or even quickly switch between the two functions, as the two functions require changes to the MODX's MIDI settings (not something savable in a quickly recallable Performance).

I could be misunderstanding, but that's what it looked like to me. Though still, I bet Camelot Pro would be a solution.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MODX Series Synthesizers
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The stated assumed goals are achievable without Camelot.

I'm going to give a specific example - but this strategy is not required. Hopefully it helps open up a door to the eventual solution chosen.

This idea requires one Part in Parts 1-8 to be used to send MIDI to your DAW. By no means do you have to do things this way. But it allows for your Performance to control if MODX is forwarded to the Hammond in a selective manner.

1) Hammond connected to MODX 5-pin Din
2) MODX configured as USB-MIDI and never switched to another mode
3) MODX connected to a DAW. An iPad would be fine for this. DAW must support MIDI routing of MODX's MIDI ports (Port 1 = MODX Tone Engine related, Port 2 = Remote related -- not used here, Port 3 = MODX 5-pin DIN connected devices)
4) On the DAW (iPad) - setup a MIDI "track" (I'm using Cubase/Cubasis terms - but adjust to your DAW if necessary) with an input as MODX Port-1 MIDI Channel 16 and an output as MODX Port-3 MIDI Channel 1 (or whichever channel matches your Hammond)
5) On the DAW - setup MIDI pass-thru such which will cause all messages coming in from MODX Port-1 Channel 16 and will transmit those messages back to MODX Port-3 MIDI Channel 1 (or whichever channel you set matching the Hammond).
6) On the DAW - setup a MIDI track with an output as MODX (whichever channel(s) you currently do) in order to send program change information to the MODX. This part should match what you currently have and use. Just make sure to only have this output address MODX Port-1. Do not use something like "All MIDI Outputs" which may send to other Ports.
7) For any Performance on MODX you want your local keys to be sent to your Hammond setup any Part 1-8 as Zone Control (Part Zone). Under the Part Zone settings, set the (Part's) MIDI transmit channel to channel 16. For this idea, I am "dedicating" MIDI channel 16 as the "I'm going to route this back to Hammond" channel. And your DAW's job is to translate this channel to target your Hammond and re-channel.

Any Performance you do not setup this Channel-16 transmit channel will not send MIDI messages to your Hammond.

The reason why you need to use Part 1-8 is that only these Parts will be under keyboard control while also allowing simultaneous keyboard control of 7 other Parts. If you elect to use Parts 9-16 for this then you could only have one channel within Parts 9-16 under keyboard control at a time so MODX would not, by itself, layer anything in Parts 1-8 while any single Part 9-16 is selected. You can use your DAW to compensate for this even - but it becomes a lot of work both in setup and usage relative to the suggestion above.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MODX Series Synthesizers
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The stated assumed goals are achievable without Camelot.
...though it seems like it still needs some software running on an external device, whether that device is an iPad or other kind of computer, and whether that software is a DAW, or if not Camelot Pro, then some other program capable of MIDI routing among multiple devices (e.g. Gig Performer, Cantabile, Mainstage, Keystage). Your alternate approach here is useful (especially if someone already owns a DAW... it may save them from having to purchase some additional software), but I'm not sure it is any less effort.

It would be nice if Yamaha were to add a MIDI mode to Montage/MODX that would allow it to work like many other boards, where the 5-pin and the USB MIDI connections are simultaneously active from the perspective of external devices (i.e. the keyboard sends the same MIDI OUT info to both destinations instead of having to choose one or the other, and similarly receives MIDI IN from both sources). I appreciate that the current port addressing approach may provide some additional capabilities or flexibility (it's something I haven't wrapped my head around, personally), but it does seem to preclude doing things that can be done very simply on most other high end boards, without having to connect to a computer/iOS device or learn how to use an app.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MODX Series Synthesizers
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I like the option of the mode provided - but I do wish the system was more flexible to assign any port or Part to any logical MIDI bus and channel. Which would not preclude the system in place today - only add the feature to configure a bus in a more flattened/"standard" way. Probably with either the default as the more standardized approach or a button to change the MIDI bus settings to this mode. "Merged" mode vs "Isolated". The snorkelers could use these two buttons and that's it. Press "Isolated" if they want the system as it works today. Maybe make that the default even. But it would be simple to communicated - go into XYZ menu and press the "Merged" MIDI bus button if you want to do this without configuring your Daw.

I recognize not everyone has the tolerance for setup. It's not a dig. I've read enough requests that asked for something that's already possible - but not without some burden of setup. Because once you're dealing with a USB cable - this means something intelligent is on the other side. The only (major) exception to this is if you just want to have Youtube (etc) on your PC play out your studio monitor speakers without any need for MIDI routing at all and using USB just to deliver digital audio through the MODX/Montage. But these folks hardly are asking for MIDI capabilities. Those that are interested in MIDI capabilities always have some form of MIDI capable intelligence on their connected USB host device. Not always the same thing - and maybe there are limitations. Certainly there are limitations to answers since you can't assume any particular DAW or any particular OS. So it takes a while to get to the point where any real prescription can be made.

Anyhow - there's enough traffic (from those who actually have capable software to configure that would solve the issue) that the burden is too high for them to bother. I think it's worth adding features that allow for a better user experience for those who prefer less tinkering and more playing. This is fair. I think you could also enhance the ability of the tinkerers to do even more than they can today and hide all the complexity with buttons that put you into 2 predefined sets of configurations while allowing advanced users to go off grid and set the bus to even more unique combinations. This is the idea of powerful elegance. The quick template idea (although strangely implemented) is a good example of how this can work. A lot of nitty-gritty settings under the hood - but simple buttons for those who don't want to configure custom.

I think when you take a big long story and reduce it down to "press this if you want that" - that's a win for the user and support. Sometimes the caveats (I mean limitations ... I mean features) aren't worth maintaining. At least not in the rigid manner currently presented. MIDI implementation (bus structure, channel structure) is one. File system is another. There's more - but none as fundamental as those two. I guess it's good to have room to grow. Glass half full.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MODX Series Synthesizers
  3. # 5
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I'll also mention that the need to route the MIDI to the external device (e.g. iPad) may have an additional drawback for the part of this that involves using the MODX as a lower manual for his Hammond organ... it can add some amount of latency compared to just triggering the Hammond directly from the 5-pin MIDI Out without having to re-route it through am iPad app first.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MODX Series Synthesizers
  3. # 6
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I don’t see the OP mention a DAW or a computer, just FYI.

It would be nice if Yamaha were to add a MIDI mode to Montage/MODX that would allow it to work like many other boards, where the 5-pin and the USB MIDI connections are simultaneously active from the perspective of external devices (i.e. the keyboard sends the same MIDI OUT info to both destinations instead of having to choose one or the other, and similarly receives MIDI IN from both sources). I appreciate that the current port addressing approach may provide some additional capabilities or flexibility (it's something I haven't wrapped my head around, personally), but it does seem to preclude doing things that can be done very simply on most other high end boards, without having to connect to a computer/iOS device or learn how to use an app.
The MONTAGE/MODX are multi-channeled devices that can act as both MIDI and Audio Interfaces for external gear (that is why you get an either/or option for USB and 5-pin MIDI).

If you are familiar with the CP-series and the YC-series, which are not multi-channeled, MIDI and Audio interfaces beyond for themselves (no throughput for external gear to your DAW) They are “stage” products. You can view the MIDI transmit and throughput for external devices as features designed for those working with a home studio focus. Just to help you get your head around this implementation.

The MONTAGE/MODX have A/D Inputs (analog-to-digital conversion takes place) audio interface for itself and external gear.
The 5-pin MIDI ports on the MONTAGE/MODX are active when you select MIDI I/O = USB. It is that they become a portal to the computer for an external piece of gear. In this environment, you typically work with Local Control Off. This way you can play either set of Keys… the MONTAGE/MODX is sending/receiving via USB port 1… while the connected external device is sending/receiving via USB port 3.

Examples:
If you want to play the MONTAGE/MODX keys, set your MIDI Track’s MIDI IN = MONTAGE/MODX port 1
If you want to trigger your external synth, set your MIDI Track’s MIDI OUT = MONTAGE/MODX port 3.

If you want to play the external synth’s keys, set your MIDI Track’s MIDI IN = MONTAGE/MODX port 3
If you want to trigger the MONTAGE/MODX, set your MIDI Track’s MIDI OUT = MONTAGE/MODX port 1

So it is not that the 5-pin Ports are disabled, actually they are enabled to include your external gear. You use the “host” (computer or tablet application) as the redirection/routing tool.

The Audio in on the CP/YC are not A/D Inputs… no complex conversion, no audio throughput to the computer. The audio goes directly to the Audio Outputs.

Hope that helps with understanding the differences and why you don’t see what you described on MONTAGE/MODX…
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MODX Series Synthesizers
  3. # 7
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I don’t see the OP mention a DAW or a computer, just FYI.
Well, he did mention an iPad (and I never referred to computer except in the context of something like "computer/iOS device";). But more to the point, your solution was to use Camelot Pro, which requires either an iPad, Mac, or PC. Whether Camelot or something else, the discussion so far seems to indicate that the goal cannot be accomplished without configuring some external device to perform the necessary routing. Though since the iPad is already part of the rig, he's halfway there, (Jason suggested a DAW as an alternative to Camelot, and a DAW could similarly be run on an iPad, Mac, or PC. But that may just come down to which software you're more comfortable working with.)

I can appreciate that the Montage/MODX routing can let you do some useful things that other boards can't do. From your description, I don't see what would preclude an additional option to let it do the "simple things" as simply as other boards do, if Yamaha were inclined to provide it, but I could easily be missing something. Your examples are pretty foreign to my own experiences, so I don't have a good foundation there (e.g. I've never routed MIDI through a DAW, I've never sent audio between a computer and a keyboard via direct USB connection, etc.... valuable as I'm sure these things are, they are just not part of my workflow). However, I have done the kinds of things the OP is talking about. More typical live performance stuff, rather than from the perspective of, as you put it, a home studio focus.

Anyway, back to the OP, I have an easy solution that does not require any software (no Camelot, no DAW, no MIDI routing software of any sort). Just get an adapter that will give you a 5-pin DIN MIDI Out for your iPad (there are numerous ways to do it, though the particulars differ depending on whether you have a lightning equipped iPad or a USB-C model). Now you can leave your MODX in its 5-pin MIDI (non-USB) mode, and just connect the iPad to the MODX' MIDI IN, and just as you do now, connect the MODX'S MIDI OUT to the MIDI IN of the Hammond. Assuming the OP does not need to move audio between the iPad and the MODX, I think this is the simple solution we seek... we may have simply missed the most obvious! (Though depending on what he does or does not already own, this may not be the cheapest way to do it, if that's a concern.)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MODX Series Synthesizers
  3. # 8
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Your examples are pretty foreign to my own experiences, so I don't have a good foundation there (e.g. I've never routed MIDI through a DAW, I've never sent audio between a computer and a keyboard via direct USB connection, etc.... valuable as I'm sure these things are, they are just not part of my workflow).
This is why I took the time to explain it. It is a function of use to many users particularly in small home studio setups.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MODX Series Synthesizers
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Your examples are pretty foreign to my own experiences, so I don't have a good foundation there (e.g. I've never routed MIDI through a DAW, I've never sent audio between a computer and a keyboard via direct USB connection, etc.... valuable as I'm sure these things are, they are just not part of my workflow).
This is why I took the time to explain it. It is a function of use to many users particularly in small home studio setups.
I understand those things are useful. I was trying to say that I didn't understand whether/why those things might preclude Yamaha from offering an option that allowed the ports to simultaneously directly communicate with attached devices (albeit at the expense, perhaps, of being able to do some of that other stuff while that option were selected). Otherwise these nice features you alluded to for home studio use can complicate things for live gigging use! But like I said, "I could easily be missing something" because "I don't have a good foundation" in the kinds of things you were talking about there, so I could easily be missing finer points, i.e. if you were trying to tell me why what I was asking for wouldn't be viable in this architecture and so this was a necessary compromise, this more sophiticated studio capability coming at the expense of some live flexibility. Regardless, though, even if Yamaha could do such a thing as provide that alternate option, that doesn't mean they would, of course. In the end, we just need to find some solution that works, and in this case, I think we did!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MODX Series Synthesizers
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I was trying to say that I didn't understand whether/why those things might preclude Yamaha from offering an option that allowed the ports to simultaneously directly communicate with attached devices (albeit at the expense, perhaps, of being able to do some of that other stuff while that option were selected). Otherwise these nice features you alluded to for home studio use can complicate things for live gigging use!


Can't agree with this strongly enough, nor the next part about not being sure.

Colour me sad that I can't get low latency in and out from/to MODX/Montage with the kinds of immediacy other hardware might expect from it.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MODX Series Synthesizers
  3. # 11
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
It's possible that the OP already has some software installed to handle the routing. They have something that sends "Performance changes". Or ... maybe it doesn't do any of that.

Camelot is an option among other viable options. Fingers crossed that what they have already does this. If not - there are some relatively inexpensive MIDI routing apps (and some expensive enough to justify Camelot, Cubasis, or the other choices out there).

Make sure you don't already have something installed on your iPad that will handle the required MIDI routing

If not, evaluate your options. Everything from a <$7 app that routes MIDI (and that's it) to fully featured iPad-based DAWs. They will all cover the need with varying levels of extra capabilities. Determine what, if anything, extra would be beneficial.

Alternatively you could change the setup using a change in hardware. Adding a 5-pin MIDI port that interfaces with your iPad. This was suggested previously. For the stated purpose - sending "Performance changes" - even bluetooth MIDI would work (MD-BT01). The benefit of having a wireless MIDI interface may hold its own benefits.

First, I was trying to establish what software you already own which may cover the request without additional hardware or software.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MODX Series Synthesizers
  3. # 12
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Adding a 5-pin MIDI port that interfaces with your iPad. This was suggested previously. For the stated purpose - sending "Performance changes" - even bluetooth MIDI would work (MD-BT01). The benefit of having a wireless MIDI interface may hold its own benefits.
That probably won't work because, even though we only care about using the MIDI IN connection of the MODX for the purpose at hand (changing Performances), I'm pretty sure the MD-BT01 requires you to connect it to the MIDI Out regardless, because that's probably where it draws its power from. So that would preclude being able to use that port to drive the Hammond as a lower manual. I suppose adding a MIDI Thru box might address this, but it's starting to get a little clumsy... the MD-BT01 is small, it's connection probably wouldn't reach to a connector on a Thru box, so then you'd need to add a MIDI extension, and then you'd have to worry about whether the Thru box and extension might interfere with the ability of the MD-BT01 to get power... I'd say this route just isn't worth the potential complication.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MODX Series Synthesizers
  3. # 13
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