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  1. Kris
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. Wednesday, 12 July 2017
I'm trying to set up scenes within a performance so a certain keyboard zone would trigger an internal part in one scene and an external MIDI channel in another one.

No problem muting the internal part in one scene vs the other, but I can't seem to do the same with the external channel. The zone on/off switch status seems not to be included in what a scene records.

Could anyone suggest a workaround to achieve this ?

Thanks,
Kris
Responses (11)
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Automation of functions by the Montage is reserved for Montage Parts, your external synth is external. To gain the same kind of automation and control over your external synth, you must make it a Montage Part: you do so by plugging the audio output of that's external synth to the A/D Input of the Montage.

This gives it a full channel with dual Insertion Effects, and control over its volume, Pan position, Effect Sends, etc., etc. you can even morph to it via the Super Knob like it were an internal Part - because by plugging into the A/D Input actually makes it an internal Part.

And although the A/D Part does not have a MUTE button, you can automate its volume level - which is remembered by a Scene snapshot.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I may be incorrect in interpretation - but my screen wasn't big enough to fit BM's response and I my first impression was that scene control for external parts meant PARTs 9-16 vs. PARTs 1-8 (not A/D input). OR that "external PARTs" meant PARTs which did not play any internal sounds but sent MIDI data to external gear to make it sound.

Even my initial read (without thinking of A/D) had sensed some ambiguity in the message. So what are you trying to do in more detail?

If you want a PART 1-8 to stop sending notes - you could always switch the ARP to Mute 4/4 which could "throw away" your key presses for that PART. If incoming data (MIDI in) targeting a particular PART - you could use the same Mute tricks you use on the other PARTs - so this couldn't be it.

Or maybe A/D is it.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 2
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Scenes, like the Super Knob, are global devices. They can affect all 16 internal Parts plus, indirectly, the A/D Input Part. If you wish to automate control over your external synth, plug its audio outputs to the A/D Inputs of the Montage. It now enters the Motion Control Engine... where you can now exert some additional control over it.

There is no difference in the way Scenes or the Super Knob behaves concerning the internal Parts, 1-16.

A "Part" receives; when you MUTE a Part you stop it from sounding. This command is meaningless to your external device... it doesn't Mute. It continues to send its audio to its outputs (you did not interrupt transmitting with the MUTE command). You must send the audio into Montage, assign control of the A/D Input Part to one of the Super Knob's 8 AssignKnobs... it is the Super Knob position which is stored and can be recalled by the Scene.

Don't confuse the ability to control Parts 1-8 simultaneously, with the fact that a Performance has 16 Parts plus the A/D Input Part which can be impacted by the Montage engine. You can control any of 16 Parts with Scene commands, with Super Knob movement; it wouldn't be "Super" if it only did 1-8.

Scenes and Super Knob are global in that they affect everything (or can)... you can include the A/D Input into items you can control by linking it to the Motion Control Engine via assigning Audio volume to an AssignKnob.

In order to effectively control external MIDI devices, you should use the Montage ZONE MASTER function. This allows you to program any (or all) of a Performance's 16 slots as a ZONE control. A maximum of eight of these Control Zones can be active simultaneously... (those under KBD CTRL), but any can be activated by selecting them directly. Those linked by KBD CTRL will be active any time "Common" or any of those with the green KBD CTRL icon is selected. Those not linked, can be activated by directly selecting that slot as an individual Zone.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Suggestion to use Mute 4/4 (ARP) can work to selectively stop a PART from sending MIDI notes assuming you do not have the key mode set to "direct", etc. Also assuming you have the keyboard set to only send ARP output and not the trigger notes. Assuming this, your external gear will not see notes for those channels participating in a "Mute 4/4" ARP since the ARP intercepts your keys and outputs no notes.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Some additional questions from a new user who's thinking about buying the Montage after being a happy Motif XS/S90xs user for years now:

- Does the KBD CTL setting and/or the maximum of 8 also effect Parts 9-16 when they are being controlled by an external source using the MIDI IN connector?
- Can the KBD CTL buttons also be recalled from the Scenes?

I would like to use my Nord Electro as a MIDI controller to the Montage and use the Montage keyboard at the same time, while switching to different combinations of layered parts in one Performance. It is acceptable if the combinations under Part 1-8 are only controlled locally and Part 9-16 by the external source. Is this do-able or do I end up creating lots of individual performances for one song?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 5
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
- Does the KBD CTL setting and/or the maximum of 8 also effect Parts 9-16 when they are being controlled by an external source using the MIDI IN connector?
This question is not clear. KBD CTRL allows the player to link multiple Parts for simultaneous interaction. Each of the first eight Parts can be played Direct by you or placed under control of one of Montage's eight Arpeggiators. If you select a Performance with 8 KBD CTRL Parts, then Parts 9-16 are available for individual selection... touching a [PART SELECT] button allows you to play that individual instrument sound.

This is the Montage in MIDI I/O mode = Multi. each of Montage's sixteen Parts are on separate channels.
In such a case, if your external controller was sending in on Channel 9, it would be able to control a Montage Part assigned to Part 9, if it is sending in on Channel 10 it will control Montage Part 10. Basic MIDI.

- Can the KBD CTL buttons also be recalled from the Scenes?
No, not at all. A SCENE is snapshot memory that captures Settings of the Tone Generator, not Settings of the Keyboard. If you think of a modern synthesizer as 3 separate components you'll understand better why it is not a parameter that is captured in a Scene; the synth as a whole consists of a Keyboard Controller, a Tone Generator and a Song Recorder.

Back in the early days of MIDI Yamaha had a KEYBOARD CONTROLLER (the KX88) weighted action, synth keyboard PB/MW, Foot Controller jacks, Breath Controller, etc... you connected this with a 5-pin MIDI cable to a QX1 SEQUENCE RECORDER a 5 1/4" floppy disk MIDI recorder, that connected by eight 5-pin MIDI cables to your TONE GENERATOR (the TX816) eight DX7 modules in a rack.

Here it was clear to early adopters what was a KEYBOARD setting, and what was a SEQUENCER parameter, and exactly what qualified as a TONE GENERATOR setting. The KEYBOARD transmitted to the RECORDER, the RECORDER transmitted to the TONE GENERATOR.

SCENES are strictly snapshot type memory that captures certain TONE GENERATOR settings... Part Volume, Pan position, Super Knob position, Mute status, Effect Send amounts, Arpeggio selection, Motion Sequence selection, Envelope Offsets, and Filter Offsets. While this is an impressive amount of parameters when you consider Scenes and Super Knob position can be addressing parameters throughout all 16 Parts. But all the parameters are directly associated with the Tone Generator.

Once you understand what a SCENE is it then is then, hopefully, clearer why the KBD CTRL setting which is not a TONE GENERATOR setting at all, is NOT memorized with the TONE GENERATOR settings; it is a function of the KEYBOARD component. You control what MIDI channel you are transmitting on by using the [PART SELECT] buttons on the Montage front panel. It is not memorized in the TONE GENERATOR, no more than the Velocity you are playing is saved in a Scene. Velocity is function of the KEYBOARD transmitting not the TONE GENERATOR receiving.... making sense yet? What the Keyboard is set to transmit is not stored as a Tone Generator setting, but is separately controllable in real time.

If you understand how MIDI works this is fairly simple to understand. Seems the longer you've been doing MIDI, the better prepared you are to understand these as *separate components* that are combined and how they interact with each other when found in one product.

SCENE memorized setting concern the Tone Generator. Not the Keyboard, not the Recorder. And Scene focus on a select group of Tone Generator parameters, those that would specifically be used while creating a mix.

I would like to use my Nord Electro as a MIDI controller to the Montage and use the Montage keyboard at the same time, while switching to different combinations of layered parts in one Performance. It is acceptable if the combinations under Part 1-8 are only controlled locally and Part 9-16 by the external source. Is this do-able or do I end up creating lots of individual performances for one song?
"different combinations of layered Parts" not sure what is meant by this, but all we can say is how good any external device will be as a controller to control Montage will depend on your expectations of what you want to do... and how many channels simultaneously your selected external controller sends out on.

If your external controller only transmits on a single channel, that limit will impact what you can do controlling Montage, as you know the Montage normally transmits to multiple Parts. I don't know the Nord keyboard at all, but if you only wish to play the keys (like a piano player) that will be fine, but to match the amount or sheer number of physical controls you will find external controllers perhaps lacking.

A Montage Performance contains 16 Parts... each is placed on different MIDI Channel. The Montage can transmit simultaneously on channels 1-8. If a Montage Performance is a Single Part Performance, then slots 2-16 can be used for other Single Parts, individually selectable for play. If a Montage Performance is a two Part Performance, then slots 3-16 can be used for Single Parts, individually selectable for play. And so on... if eight Parts are in the Performance the. Slots 9-16 are available for individual selection.

Each Part is the equivalent of a Motif XF VOICE.

When attempting to use the Montage as a Master controller - it acts as an eight Zone Master Keyboard.
When using the Montage as a Slave Module - it responds as a sixteen Part tone generator... one Part per channel
It does have a MIDI I/O Single mode, where it acts as a 8 Part engine capable of reacting to a single channel input
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks Bad Mister for your reply!
Let's say I do now how MIDI works, I already did quite complex implementations and I'm an HW/SW developer myself.
I do admit my question was possibly not clear enough.
Thank you for clearing up the implementation of the KBD CTRL.

I want to use the Montage as the only tone generator in the setup, but controlled by both the native Montage keyboard as by an external MIDI source.
The external MIDI source is in this case my Nord which is only capable of transmitting on one MIDI channel at a time (which could indeed be my limiting factor in the end).
Of course some thoughts may be too much MOTIF-like but I just would like to see how my way-of-working could fit the Montage platform.

Let's say I configure the Montage in MIDI I/O Single mode and in one Performance I have all parts (1-16) filled up with different sounds. I enable KDB CTRL for Part 1-8 and switch between the Parts (or a combination of 2 sounding parts) by turning the Mutes of each part on/off in different Scenes.

Secondly, I would like to control Part 9-16 the same way but from the incoming data on the MIDI IN connector. I can recall the mutes of the 'upper' parts with the same 8 Scenes mentioned before, that would be fine. But I would like Part 9-16 to listen to the data on just the MIDI IN connector, which could for this setup be a fixed channel, but parts 1-8 should NOT respond to the data from the external controller.

It does have a MIDI I/O Single mode, where it acts as a 8 Part engine capable of reacting to a single channel input


So Part 9-16 are not even available in MIDI I/O Single mode, is that what you're saying?
Looking at the MIDI I/O Multi mode I see no way in, for instance, sounding Part 9 and 10 at the same time from a single receiving MIDI channel.

On the MOTIF in 'Multi mode' I could decide for each 'part' what MIDI channel (internal or external) it should listen to, even multiple 'parts' could listen to the same received MIDI channel in every possible configuration. I use that way of creating layered sounds and fast switching between them a lot!

I hope this is clearing up what I'm trying to achieve here and I hope you're able to help me get my head around this.

Thanks in advance!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 7
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Part 9-16 are not even available in MIDI I/O Single mode
Obviously not. Take it literally, the Montage in Single mode acts as a single synth... not a multi synth.

Sorry, if the 'knowledge of MIDI' comments were a bit heavy handed, but I find it is helpful to make folks recognize when we say SINGLE, we mean that the Montage will be able to be played with an external keyboard controller, exactly the same as you can when you are addressing an eight Part KBD CTRL Performance with the Montage keys.

Currently your Nord transmits on one channel at a time. So if Montage is in MIDI I/O mode = MULTI, you can only trigger one Part, this can mean you miss certain layers, certain entire instrument... you call up CFX Grand you can only play in a limited velocity range... if you call up "Seattle Sections" if all you can transmit on is channel 1, you'll only be playing the first violins.... and you'll miss the second violins, violas, cellos, contra basses, etc...

If, however you set the MIDI I/O mode = Single, suddenly your single Transmit controller can control all the Parts same as if you were playing on the Montage keys.

I don't know Nord keyboards, you say it only transmits on one channel at a time, but is it multi timbral?
What happens when you plug a MIDI cable into it?
Can you address it from its keybed while playing an external controller on channels 9 and 10, probably not... Montage is just like it when in Single mode. It is a single synth engine addressable by the keys.

There are tons of synthesizers that are not multi-timbal. Dave Smiths synths do what they do on a single channel.
When you select MIDI I/O Mode = Single, it behaves like any single synth when you plug in a MIDI cable.

Hope that helps.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
A lot of requests seem to somehow lead to the unusual MIDI implementation of the Montage (Multi Part Instruments in conjunction with Fixed MIDI channels in MULTI mode, i.e. MIDI channels not freely assignable to parts). Some time ago I suggested a third MIDI mode, CUSTOM mode, which would allow users to interpolate more freely between SINGLE and MULTI mode.

Bad Mister, I know you won't answer questions on future upgrades (if any), or "why" questions (and probably, in your role, I would not do this, either). But I am still curious about some technical aspects of the current MIDI implementation of Montage, maybe you can shed some more light on this. From previous posts, I understood that one of the advantages of the Multi Part / Multi channel Instruments (like CFX) is that they allow for more control / interaction, because multiple MIDI channels allow multiple controllers (e.g. VOLUME going up on one channel / part, going down on another - this would not be possible using just one MIDI channel). This Multi Part / Channel matrix is handled by KBD CTRL, if I understood correctly.

That seems, at least in theory, a valid argument to me. However I wonder how SINGLE mode is working then, because here, everything has to go through just one MIDI channel if I am not mistaken? Are there some Performances which have a reduced feature set in SINGLE mode, as compared to MULTI mode?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 9
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
That seems, at least in theory, a valid argument to me. However I wonder how SINGLE mode is working then, because here, everything has to go through just one MIDI channel if I am not mistaken? Are there some Performances which have a reduced feature set in SINGLE mode, as compared to MULTI mode?
No, not at all. And trust me, once this very thing becomes clear the rest starts to fall into place.

There is functionally no difference between playing the Montage from its own Keyboard in MIDI I/O Mode = Multi or in Single as concerns controlling and performing the programs. Even when playing it with a single transmit channel external Controller when MIDI I/O Mode = Single. All Performances will behave the same in all cases

The only difference between these two Modes is what gets transmitted OUT via MIDI in each case.

When "Multi" is selected each Part Send on its own MIDI Channel, the keyed notes play direct, those with an ARP assigned sends the ARP phrase data Out via MIDI on the MIDI channel of the Part... instead of the keyed notes.
When "Single" is selected only the Keyed notes are sent Out via MIDI. ARP data is not Output.

It's that simple and that complex.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Makes sense - overlapping ARPs from multiple PARTs sent out a single channel would be a train-wreck of interleaved nonsense. I guess one other way to solve this would have been to allow only one PART (under single-channel MIDI mode) to send MIDI ARP output. Could have made this a common-level setting or next to the MIDI mode (which PART to allow ARP output). Sort of like how superknob automation allows to pick a PART as ARP input for the sync=ARP feature (not in terms of function - but in terms of GUI control).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 11
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