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  1. Jim
  2. Sherlock Holmes
  3. MOTIFXF
  4. Tuesday, 29 March 2016
I created this thread on Motifator, but since this is the official Yamaha website, I thought I'd share it here. I had a lot of positive and concerned responses regarding this subject and my fondest hope is that Yamaha takes a long hard look at it.

Here is basically what I wrote:

Hello all!

I have heard a “rumor” (is it?) that the Motif XF series is going to be discontinued.
I do know this is a normal thing with cars and so forth. The new 2016’s come out and there are no longer the 2015’s.
However, in the case of a musical instrument as expensive and expressive as the Motif XF series, why would Yamaha discontinue it?
The Montage is coming out and they are saying it is the Motif XF’s replacement. There has been enough discussion here on Motifator to prove that the Motif XF and the Montage are nearly apples to oranges.
I believe there will still be people wanting to purchase a new Motif XF in the future since it is not the same as the Montage.
We aren’t talking about some obscure synth that is 30 years old, the Motif XF isn’t even all that old and it sure does a lot that the Montage does not.
And then there is the subject of how long will it be supported by Yamaha? There are a lot of Motf XF’s out there. The last OS update was back in January 2014. Being a software/hardware guy, I know that the one thing that Yamaha could have done to update the Motif (the one thing I wish it has that the Montage does) is replace firewire with USB. I made the suggestion years ago that they should update the OS and come out with a hardware replacement for firewife. Yamaha’s marketing team thought differently.
Yamaha should continue to support a huge and loyal fan base for an instrument that is simply put, incredible.
For Yamaha to discontinue the Motif XF and supporting it is of course for them a marketing play bowing to the almighty dollar, but it abandons an artistic, loyal fan base.
I for one, do not want to be abandoned with the best instrument I have ever purchased. And the kicker is, for all of us Motif XF users, Yamaha already made their money on us!

And then I wrote after some concerned responses:

I have heard as well that some music stores here in the States are “clearancing” out the Motif XFs. Not radically reducing the price, but just by a bit.
However, I still think it is a mistake on Yamaha’s part to do away with the line since the Montage is such a departure from the Motif XF.
At the very least as I mentioned, I would hope that since there are so many Motif XFs out there and such a big fan base, that Yamaha would continue to support and update such a glorious instrument.
I don’t plan on selling mine either, nor do I plan on getting a Montage.
I just think it is a big mistake that Yamaha does what they think is “good” for us by removing some major components. The Montage to me would have been more exciting if they introduced the new features they did but retain what they already had in its entirety.
They already had the technology of the Motif XF in place, just add to it! Don’t rip major stuff out and try to make us giddy that the new stuff is what we need. The Motif XF is a beautiful instrument. Please Yamaha, keep manufacturing it and supporting it!

And finally:

Yes, I heard about the MOX to MOXF bait and switch. That one was even worse than the Motif XF!
However, software/hardware updates for these instruments shouldn’t leave the user base in the cold.
Of course I understand that every company wants to make a profit and it all comes down to the all mighty dollar.
However, does Yamaha really think that in this economy that the average person can just keep plunking down 4K plus the money for any accessories every few years?
The Motif series ran a long time, but the Motif XF has had only a little over 5 year run. The last update was in January 2014.
As a software engineer, we create updates for legacy programs every week!
Even if it is simply a side project for Yamaha to work on updates, I’m sure all of us loyal Motif XF fans would be willing to wait. We’ve waited over 2 years for an update already.
If the Motif is going away, I sure don’t see the accessories or libraries going down in price.
I’m not just being a snip, I’m rooting for all of the Motif XF users out there. We plunked down our 4K, we should not be left in the cold. Parts for repair, great! At least if mine breaks down (God forbid) then I can get it fixed. They better not jack up the prices of those parts to repair a discontinued item! I heard the display alone is real pricy.
I guess I just love this instrument so much that I’d love to see Yamaha give us the same care that I give my Motif XF.

If you want to see the whole thread on Motifator: http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/477041/

Thank you.
References
  1. http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/477041/
Responses (39)
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi Jim,
Welcome to Yamaha Synth... while I cannot discuss with you much about what the company does, strategies, etc., as a whole... I'm just a product guy... My forte, if any, is HOW TO, not HOW COME...
I can answer some of your concerns and questions, however. First, thank you very, very much for being a Yamaha synth user! It shows that you have a good set of ears and are, indeed, a very smart individual.

I have heard a “rumor” (is it?) that the Motif XF series is going to be discontinued.
This is no rumor!!! The Motif XF is now out of production. As keyboard synthesizers go, it has had a nice lengthy run 2010-2016. Six full years!

The Montage is coming out and they are saying it is the Motif XF’s replacement. There has been enough discussion here on Motifator to prove that the Motif XF and the Montage are nearly apples to oranges.
Prove, prove what? I don't know how you can prove anything if you have only tasted the apple and are reading a spec sheet about the oranges.... sorry, a bad attempt at humor. But let's look at these rumors... The Montage is definitely a different kind of fruit, of that there is no doubt. But the point I want to make (no humor this time) is why would owner's of the Motif XF try to "prove" or need to "prove" anything about the next synthesizer Yamaha makes. If you own a Motif XF and you like it, no worries.

The Motif XF is built, like most pro Yamaha synths, like a tank and will continue to work and make great music for many years to come. We are quite proud of it, thank you, and it represents itself very well on stages and recordings the world over. That will not change. And I suspect it will work for many more years for those musicians. It is designed and built to do so!

And then there is the subject of how long will it be supported by Yamaha?
I'll fall back on our reputation here. Because I know I can! We still support products that ARE, indeed, 30 years old, so I cannot imagine that changing one bit. As to the last update, that was the last update that it required.

The new HD reverbs and Guitar amp simulations designed for the Montage are probably already in your Motif XF (I betcha!) :)

The Motif6/7/8 (classic) came out in 2001 and was discontinued in 2003, the final update for it was at least two years after it was discontinued (2005). I don't know of many companies in this music business that can claim that kind of support on discontinued product. Yamaha did not get to be a 129 year old music company by skimping on support or abandoning our customers.

Being a software/hardware guy, I know that the one thing that Yamaha could have done to update the Motif (the one thing I wish it has that the Montage does) is replace firewire with USB. I made the suggestion years ago that they should update the OS and come out with a hardware replacement for firewife.
Then being a software/hardware guy you must know that up until very recently USB did not have the bandwidth to support the number of audio channels that Yamaha's Firewire system was moving to and fro in a Network... We were moving 100 channels of audio and 256 channels of MIDI in a FireWire based mLAN system back in 2003. We can (just) now move 34 channels of audio in and out (via USB) on our newest digital consoles (TF-series). The 01V96i (was our first with 16-in/16-out via USB and that was just a couple of years ago)

Montage has a 32-in/6-out USB audio interface built-in to each model of the synth... plus MIDI via USB. USB always had enough speed for music systems - that was not its problem, it was the bandwidth - the need to move music in several directions simultaneously in an audio routing situation. USB can now handle it (good thing, too) and it's about time.

So real time audio recording from the Montage will be a dream fulfilled in terms of audio recording capability. So thank you for suggesting it to us, but in actual fact, we were ALL OVER THIS... waiting for a time when USB could be used for the type of audio functions we musicians (and sound people) require. We are there now (still not at 100 channels of audio quite yet) but that proved to be a bit over-the-top for most home studio situations anyway.

I will not comment on your "almighty dollar" and "artistic, loyal fan base" statement, other than to say it is not realistic and certainly not true. Not that we do everything right, but I shutter to think exactly where this industry would be without companies like Yamaha, who are committed to music and musicians. Your statement is just not worthy of the rest of your post - hopefully that is just some kind of disappointment / exaggeration talking (and you don't really believe that)... I hope.

I don’t plan on selling mine either, nor do I plan on getting a Montage.
Then you should not. Why do you feel compelled to sell your XF and state that you are not getting a Montage... (although, we'll see). You seem to think that one has something to do with the other... perhaps it is the "replacement" word. You (and others you quote) feel like the Montage is supposed to "replace" the Motif XF. I'm not sure that is what is happening here or even if that is a point to discuss. Unless we come up with a viable definition for the word "replacement".

Yes, it will "replace" the Motif XF as the most expensive synthesizer in the current product lineup. If that is the meaning of replacement here, that works. If you mean will it do everything the Motif XF does plus a new bag of peanuts,... well, no, it's an orange remember!?! :)

Yes it's a departure in many ways. We are glad that word is getting out there. It is not a Motif XF+, it is a Montage. This will establish itself on its own terms.

If you are taking "replace" to mean, (and I'm pretty sure I'm reading you correctly) that some how you are being told by Yamaha that the Motif XF is obsolete. Not at all. If your workflow is fine with Motif XF, you are likely to get many, many more years of use out of it. For sure! Please, you would be silly to abandon it. You know it, you love it, it fits your workflow... if you are happy... we are very happy!

The Montage to me would have been more exciting if they introduced the new features they did but retain what they already had in its entirety.
Everything I had already, and then just add some new stuff... :-) ... that old tune.

We hear this kind of thing all the time... the Motif itself... came with into the market with the same lament, back in 2001.

Yes, I heard about the MOX to MOXF bait and switch. That one was even worse than the Motif XF!
I read that - it's a rather paranoid reaction to NEW products. If you were not interested in adding new Waveforms and Samples (and we heard from enough customers to make that upgrade), you could just keep the MOX. If you were, however, (and we know that those folks were out there by the thousands) interested in what the MOX had to offer but wanted to expand the palette of sound, the MOXF (F for Flash) opened the door. And made the power of the sound of the Motif XF available to the volume ZONE price points between $1000-$2000 dollars!!!
The XS to XF was a similar situation - not for everyone - but answered the mail from those interested in new Waveforms and Samples that remained in memory! This feature, mainly for the thousands and thousands of users who perform live for a living!!

Flash staved off obsolescence - it allows the user to re-invent their synthesizer. "Bait and switch" Ouch! (if I didn't have such a thick skin for this type of comment, I bet I'd be upset...) but it is so far from reality - it sounds like someone who has no idea how business decisions are made and believes in corporate "conspiracy theories" behind every company move. There was no "bait and switch", period. It was answering customer requests. (And I'm reading a customer request in your post) .... see I'm listening through all the strange misplaced comments.

The MOXF found its target - and just ask anyone in music retail, the (sales) numbers support the move to add the Flash! Those numbers and that support allows the company to keep pushing the envelope to develop new (and we think, exciting) products - at both higher and lower price points.

As a software engineer, we create updates for legacy programs every week!
Probably need to... (see how that kind of stings!) I'm kidding, of course, but just to make a point. Updates in the Yamaha synth hardware come when it is deemed necessary - some are BUG fixes, some are brand new features!!!! - I already gave an example of two years after discontinued the Motif (classic) had a firmware update!

If the Motif is going away, I sure don’t see the accessories or libraries going down in price.
Not sure where in the world you live, but selling pricing of instrument are not determined by Yamaha - but by the music retailer. Accessories for the Montage are similar (if not exactly) the same as for the Motif... And libraries are programmed by third party programmers... Yamaha cannot dictate what they are sold for... this is free enterprise... Seems you are grasping at straws to make a point.

Oh, and by the way two FL1024M Flash Boards, the FW16E FireWire Board, the Chick Corea Mark V, and a ton of other content are now "Free" with the purchase of a Motif XF (through 3.31.16) Yikes, that's Thursday!!! Going fast, too!
See: Motif XF Fully Loaded

Pricing is not something the company controls beyond the MSRP (suggested retail price) that's all we can do is suggest. You make your best deal with your music store - at the point they are selling it to you, they own it.

Thank you.
You're very welcome. And seriously, thank you for being a concerned and loyal customer. Maybe the next product we come out with will be the "replacement" for your Motif XF... and here's hoping it comes out about the time your XF is falling apart! or at exactly the time you are ready for a new synth.

Please forgive me if you think I'm being flippant or that I am minimizing your concern. Believe me, I am not. I take what customers tell me very seriously. I spend most of my time getting into exactly *HOW* our customer use our products.

I don't understand fully why you are against new product. If you own a Motif XF, whether Yamaha continues to make it or not, should not be a concern - for you. You have what you want and like.

We have a stellar record in the area of Customer Support - does that mean every one has a good experience, No, as hard as we strive to get there, that is not possible. But by far we have a great track record. In the industry this is known. Do not worry about support, or parts or anything like that. we got your back!!!!

Enjoy your Motif XF - we built it to last you a good long time. And if you continue to support the third party companies that make libraries for the Motif XF, I'm sure they will continue to make sounds available. Between the Motif XF and MOXF owners (the MOXF can load all Motif XF sounds directly, if you have a Flash Board), that is a ton of customers as you pointed out - I would imagine you will continue to see voicing support for the Motif XF for quite some time.

And since the NEW Montage can load that Motif XF data as well (along with Motif ES, S90 XS/S70 XS, DX7, TX816, TX802, Motif XS), I can pretty much guarantee that developers of sounds know very well just how many MOXF + Motif XF + Montage customers are available for purchasing their libraries.

I hope that answers your questions. I know a lot of it is not what you wanted to hear, but it is an honest response (forgive my attempts at humor, if they failed) but I had some one come up to me at the January NAMM show with the same accusatory attitude about "abandoning loyal customers" - how dare we put out a product that was not for them.. is basically what they were saying. I told him to look around the booth (Yamaha introduced over 100 new products at the show...) most of the new releases were not for them. Most of them weren't even keyboards...

If the Montage is not for you, this is going to be okay. It's all good. It is probably not the last synthesizer product the company will release. I also know, that if you think Motif XF sounds good, you are going to love Montage sound (whether or not you purchase one!)

Again, thanks for your support, comments and concerns. Believe it or not, they do not fall on deaf ears. And if you have any product (How To) questions on your Motif XF, Yamaha Synth is the place to get them answered - and this is the correct forum heading!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
So sad. the greatest keyboard workstation ever made. followed up by the Montage-which sounds great but made for the DAW-EDM-Trance crowd. without the sampling and the smooth song-pattern sequencer I don't think I will get a Montage.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi Phil,

Thank you for the time you took to reply to my post.
I guess I didn't voice some of what I wrote very elegantly, but I just wish that Yamaha would have kept all that the Motif is and expand on it.

As I did state in my post, I'm not in the market for a new synth anyway. I wrote it in part just to put in one spot a lot of what either I wrote, or others wrote. You can see even what Carl wrote to this thread.

I have your DVD on the Motif XF and love it. You use the phrase "old ******" a lot in it. Well, there are a lot of us "old ******" guys out there. I'm in my mid 50's in the U.S.A. and have been buying and using synthesizers since the 70's. I've always loved Yamaha products. Even forked over the big cash for a DX7 when they first came out, still have it. Since my DX7 still works, I know Yamaha makes fine products.

I just feel that there are enough of us still out there that aren't too much into having the synth/computer setup to do what is already in the Motif. I personally found it weird that the sequencer is so limited and sampling is gone on board. I love all of that stuff. Compared to what I used in the 70's and 80's, I'm like a kid in a candy store with the Motif XF. Never in my life did I think I'd have one synth that has so much under the hood.

The only 2 things that I wish were addressed was the limit of only 2 GB for flash since memory is so cheap now. And the Montage has only 1.75 GB! And the thing I mention where I wish Yamaha would have done the R & D on implementing the USB port such as they did on the Montage and do away with firewire. For me, that's about it. I have my DX7 and TX81Z for all of my FM needs.

And the ability to sample on board! Man, that is just a gas!

Yes, I'll love my Motif XF until it falls apart. I can't even afford a Montage right now even if I wanted one.

Just like so many on here, I just wanted to put my 2 cents in where I wish the Montage could have gone to be not just a great synthesizer, but an incredible sucessor to the Motif line.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I am still stunned by the 'not in production' reality of the XF.
First for us was late (September) 2011 barely two years after Motif XF's introduction.
.... so contented now to know I did partake in the 40th Celebration after passing the 10th Anniversary.
The coupons discounts for John Melas was just about half price as well as Karma and a few others!
And of course Chick's Rhodes! I was so elated over that I didn't mind only getting rebates of twenty or twenty-five each for supplies I had yet to acquire.
After all was said and done, four prepaid visa's showed up... from the needed incidentals. And even though those 'incidentals needed' (Fully Loaded) are now offered free, It's rewarding for me to know how much we enjoyed Yamaha's 4oth Anniversary Celebration and getting one of the first 'Limited Addition' White 88's!
I will not sell either one of mine!! :)
Personally, I'm 60 years of age (but don't look a bit over 40!), 'Old ******' composer, and the XF8 is the Baby Grand Piano that I don't have a room in the house for!
But more to the point, it does what writers want, pardon me for speaking for All writers which I know I shouldn't. The ole heart is biased.
By the way, what ever happened to Tyros? :) ... just kidding, not a need for answers to my facetious questions!
Before closing, and with much respect, I bid to all who read my writings,
~Grand and Great Days.
Marcus
aka Bubba
"LillieWasHere" :)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Bubba.

You get what I wrote about.

Am I slamming Yamaha? Hell no, I've been buying their stuff since the 70's.

Am I slamming the Montage? Hell no, I just think they could have given it more thought for, well let me address that.

In the business world, and going into the music buisness world, people over 50, or maybe even 40, are dinosaurs and considered extinct.

Well, listen to this world, we aren't dead yet! There is a way we are used to that is being ignored.

My first "workstation" was an Ensoniq SQ-80 (well, really a piano, paper and pencil), and still have it. It has a 3.5 floppy drive for storage.

My DX7 uses RAM cartridges for storage. I pray whatever is in them to keep the memory alive lasts a while longer.

I used to have a minimoog (damn, wish I kept that sucker) and its memory was, well my brain.

Cell phones? That was on Star Trek back in 1967 as science fiction.

Why am I rambling like this? Well, the world is catering to the 20 and 30 somethings. That's fine, they are used to high tech, they grew up with that in kindergarden, perhaps younger. But those of us who were used to rotary phones and rabbit ears on the TV (Cable? What's that?) are truly old ****** and would love to see this new tech incorporate old tech. Remember Phil Claderman? You say in your DVD a million times the word old ******.

To expect "old ******" people who are supposed to have more expendable cash than 20 ad 30 somethings (unless they extend their plastic credit) to behave like 20 and 30 somethings, well, that is just not real world.

Bubba and I get it. We like our instrument all inclusive in one spot. We want to do something cool and inside the instument, we can do it right there on the Motif.

Now in the world of the Montage, well, you need the synth and many peripherals and software to accomplish the same thing. Can you do more? Probably. But hell, the Beatles and many other composers and groups accomplished a whole heck of a lot more with less than the Motif XF offers. The Beatles had a 2 track analog recorder.

Bottom line is as I step off of my soapbox. is tech is not the answer. Imagination, compositional skills, instumental skills, etc. is where it is at. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that a person with incredible musical skills can blow away someone with all of the tech in the world if they lack in musicianship.

Are there those out there that will get a Montage that with these skills can do something incredible? I'm positive they can.

But if I had my dream, I'd love to get in a time machine and give Mozart a Motif XF and see what he could do. Damn, that would be one heck of a dream!

God bless Yamaha for giving us the Motif XF. Yamaha, please continue to update it and support it. And as you can see, I think you should continue to produce it. If you want to produce more Montages and reduce the production of Motif XF's, fine. But I'll bet you there are people who will still want a Motif XF and won't want to turn to Ebay to get one!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 5
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Bubba and I get it. We like our instrument all inclusive in one spot. We want to do something cool and inside the instument, we can do it right there on the Motif.
No, I don't think you do get it. If you are both happy with your Motif XF, then we are happy because you are happy! You haven't closed down your brains quite yet, have you? Don't be afraid of New. You haven't even tried the instrument, yet.

And reading specs, well forgive me, but the average person is not "that good"... to be able to read the specs and translate that into the actual experience of working with the instrument. I'm not sure who this Phil Claderman is you talk about, is that supposed to be me? (Call me anything, ... But late for dinner...)

I say again, not every product Yamaha puts out is going to be targeting you - the world does not revolve around just you or your demographic or any single demographic. The XF will last you and keep you happy for at least another decade. It was designed to do so. The Flash Boards ensure you will be able to load in new Libraries well into the future!!!! If the Montage is not for you, relax. Standby and watch others, don't hate the players (pun intended).... Bottom line, it's another groundbreaking, unbelievable sounding synth from a company that innovates. Heck, we built the VL1 - those who got it know... It was not for most, many could understand why it only played one note at a time - yikes!!! :)

We recently released three new Euphoniums, probably not for you either :) not every product is going to be for the all-in-one synth customer. And the Montage is a player's synth, first and foremost.

Please don't close your mind, because I can tell you that you can still make your music (yes, a complete composition) all in this one box (maybe that Claderman guy will do DVD) :). Reading the specs can't always tell you that, and obviously you don't know that yet. So we'll just keep your comments on file and read them back to you at a later date :)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Phil,

I do appologize for misspelling your name. My fingers typed faster than my brain so I got your name wrong Phil Clendeninn.

As far as my faith in Yamaha products goes. Well, as I mentioned in a previous post, I've been buying your synths and keyboards since the 70's and I have many of them. Way more than any other manufacturer because I love them!

I guess I just had a few questions as to why the true workstation concept has been abandoned for a performance synthesizer. Am I looking forward to demoing it when it comes out? You bet!

I have my Motif XF8 and love it to death. I guess I just would love future users to have the opportunity to get one outside of ebay since production has stopped and it will be harder and harder for them to get one at a retail store.

Of course I have my ideas of what the next gen synth should be as do thousands of people. Yamaha made their decision as to what they want to do and that's fine. I don't have Yamaha's research in front of me obviously that aided their decision as to what went into the Montage and what didn't move forward from the Motif XF.

I've gigged with my DX7 since I first bought it when it first came out. Over 30 years later, the instrument still works like a champ! And that poor DX7 (even though visually it looks mint since I take care of everything) and been to a whole bunch of gigs in 30 years. My KX5 on the other hand has some glitches that I'd love to have repaired.

That said, I know this instrument/tank known as the Motif XF8 will continue to give me pleasure for lord only knows how long. Will I get a Montage? I'm not sure. Since the keyboard is the same as my XF8, I could see some time in the future of perhaps adding a Montage 6 for the sound modeling.

Let's just say, I've stood by and loved Yamaha products for 40 years and I have no plans of stopping.

But I'll just say one last thing. The Motif XF8 has so much going on under the hood, will I ever grasp everything that glorious instrument can do? I sincerely doubt it. Even though it is not nearly as complicated, I'm sure there are things with my DX7 in 30 years that I haven't done with it!

Yamaha does make wonderful products.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 7
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Just wanted to pipe in with my "No-Duh" comment. I've owned the Motif ES Rack for a couple years then broke down & got the Motif ES-7(2006 or 2007-can't remember). By then the XS was out. I waited & waited patiently for the next synth to come out. I was waiting for something really cool. Then the XF came out. Too much $$ for me at the time. Wanted it but went down a different road(Got the Kronos). I was still waiting for a new & improved synth to rival the Kronos. Nothing came. Finally, the "White" version came out of the XF & broke down & got it!
Only about 6-7 months after I bought the white XF, what do I see? A Montage? Some type of hybrid Motif/DX7? Anyways, before my 'next' purchase, I will be hanging on to my XF for quite a while. Between the Kronos, XF & my V-Synth GT, I've got a real good assortment of sounds and capabilities. Bottom line...(no Duh part).....if it is not broke, don't fix it. As Bad Mister says, maybe when your synth conks out, you'll be ready for this next bad boy :)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi William!

I do understand each and every company does have their next great product in the works long before anyone outside of R&D knows about it.

I bought a DX7 when it first came out. Then they came out with the DX7-II., etc. It never stops.

I guess my whole deal is, the Motif and the Montage are, in their way, geared for different markets.

I am disappointed that the pieces of the market that the Motif was geared for was completely dropped unless we "follow the program" and completely change how we work and incorporate a computer into our setup or we cannot do from the keyboard what we want to do. And I for instance, do not like having to incorporate a computer to do what I want to do with my instrument.

As I have stated, can you do more with a synth/computer setup? Of course. Am I against the Montage? No.

As a developer myself, I just don't see why Yamaha cut out some incredible items from the Motif, didn't update certain things about the Motif, and completely stopped production of it in lieu of the Montage.

Like you, I adore my Motif XF. Are electronics prone to failure? Well, of course. An acoustic piano can even break down, but of course it can be fixed.

As Phil mentioned, Yamaha is good about supporting their instruments, but what if for some reason myself, or someone else wanted to purchase another Motif XF? I just think eBay is not a good option. Already there are sites that are saying that the Motif is out of stock and this all happened very recently and quickly.

I work with computers and let me say just one last thing. The development of computers, cell phones, synthesizers, anything electronic, happens way faster than human beings can afford and mentally process what is going on.

I'm old enough to have been freaked out when my good old rotary phone had to be replaced by this new fangled thing called pulse dialing.

Even you mentioned that you didn't have enough $$$ to "upgrade" to the next Motif. Do you have any idea even with computer chips how far in the future they have chips in R&D ready to go but don't because they want to sell the stuff they created up to the newest stuff? We as consumers receive the old stuff and have to wait for what is already available for years.

But enough of that. I'm just as I said, saddened that Yamaha took out some of the real cool stuff in the Montage that made the Motif extremely special.

I had a Minimoog. It had only a few analogue waveforms and I was always finding new ways to use them with 3 oscillators. Imagine how long it would take to fully utilize all of the waveforms and what you can do with them in the Motif? I'll be feeding the worms long before that!

In the meantime, like me, love and adore your Motif. The Motif is the synthesizer I have waited for since the mid-70's!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
One of the demonstrators on Youtube said it was the replacement to the Motif line. the Montage or any other keyboard will never replace the Motif.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
carl wrote:

One of the demonstrators on Youtube said it was the replacement to the Motif line. the Montage or any other keyboard will never replace the Motif.


When I first heard about the Montage, I was really excited to see what Yamaha was about to release. The Motif XF has been out since 2010, so after 5 or 6 years, I really expected the Montage to be the greatest workstation ever created. I really thought it would be technologically more advanced than the Korg Kronos, and sound even better. I was really disappointed when I found out it didn't have a sequencer or sampler. It's definitely not a workstation like the Motif line was. There were plenty of discussions on the Motifator forum about the Montage, and at the time, I felt as though I was in the minority in how I felt about the Montage not being a true workstation. I don't really feel that way anymore. There are a LOT of Motif users that feel the same way that I do about the Montage, so much so, that I can't really see how Yamaha will not acknowledge the discontent. I feel that some time in the future, there will be a Montage ES!?!?!? It will have all of the power of the Montage plus a true sequencer, a sampler, and larger Flash Rom capacity. I could be wrong, but that's what I would really like to see.

I am a big Yamaha fan. I bought a Motif ES7 back in 2004. It was stolen from my house back in 2012. I've been dying to replace my Motif, and I actually waited on Yamaha to release a new Motif before I bought a XF. I kept believing there would be a new workstation, and it still hasn't happened. So, as of April 30th, I am now the proud owner of a Motif XF6. Back in 2004, I was just beginning to experiment with software. Now in 2016, my entire setup is software based, except for my Motif. Things have definitely changed in the last 12 years, but I still like the freedom of stepping away from the computer, and being able to create an entire song on a true hardware workstation. I really hope that Yamaha acknowledges that there is still a customer base for workstations.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 11
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The best selling workstation is the Yamaha MOXF8 has been since it took over from the MOX8, which took over for the MO8. The price point, weight, combined with the Motif-series feature set (sans the sampling) has consistently led the so-called "workstation" category. We are very aware of the customer base for the music production synth (workstation).

When you compare the Motif XF8 to the MOXF8, for a large segment of users the facts are it's half the weight, half the price and all of the sounds... And the Flash Board option added a method to expand the wave ROM. At the higher price point - and while not universally true - you find more users who have adopted DAW based recording. That's documented... While just over half the customer base were using computers for recording back in 2001, that has skyrocketed to the point were we arrive at a synthesizer that does not attempt to duplicate the sequencer that many were not using at all.

And because of its multi-dimensional control across multiple Parts simultaneously it is also the first hardware synth with 32 bus audio outputs via USB. Allowing the user to capture a real time interaction with the synth in all its glory.

Besides there is a good reason to have the "Performance Recorder" type MIDI recorder when you are working with controlling multiple Parts, some under direct control while others are under automated control via arpeggios or motion sequences all happening simultaneously.

Food for thought: in the previous "one Part, on one Midi channel, to one track" with its "one-track-at-a-time" workflow, the old sequencer made sense.
When you record an interaction with a Montage Performance, the MIDI data will not be edited in the same way. This needs to be appreciated. For example, you've probably been used to recording control change (cc) numbers on a Midi channel - so editing cutoff was simply addressing cc74 on Midi channel X.

How the filters maybe changing in a Montage Performance can be a single gesture but results in scores of filters reacting in their own pre-designed fashion. With 8 Parts you could be interacting with 64 or more filters, each a parameter destination in the massive controller matrix. You edit the synthesizer at a more fundamental manner
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 12
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I can only speak for myself, of course, but there are very many people, worldwide, that when someone speaks Bad_Mister, smiles appear on all the faces!
Phil Clendeninn aka Bad_Mister is highly regarded and appreciated!
Yamaha Corp. of America surely agrees as well.

Thanks man, for your knowledge, patience with good temperament, your wisdom and insight and advice.
By the Way, you are hereby disallowed from ever retiring! ;-))
-----
Added;
Just a moment to acknowledge all the many others, Blake, Avery, Tones, and all those behind the scenes on Yamaha Synth.com
With much respect....
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 13
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
carl wrote:

.....followed up by the Montage-which sounds great but made for the DAW-EDM-Trance crowd.....

.
Wow! And to think I was going to use mine for Soundtracks, Commercial fills, and occasional trio work.
Good thing I read that this is made for EDM. I would have felt bad if I bought it.
My sister had some New Age stuff she was going to use it for as well.


You need to get the word out that the keyboard is only for EDM.
.
How could Blake, Phil, Tony, Bert and other personnel get away with not telling us? [/sarcasm]

You really need to open your eyes a little more instead of repeating what you've conditioned yourself to believe.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 14
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I'm sad to see the XF gone only because at some point in the future support for drivers and editors on new computer OSes will cease. Other than that, I'm OK with it. I'm not the type to flip instruments all the time when the next one comes along, had an ES for six years and the only reason I got the XF was the flash memory meant no more waiting 45 minutes for samples to load. It's been five years now and I expect to keep using it for another ten at least.

Montage looks great but what it offers is not for me and I'm 100% OK with that.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 15
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Brian wrote: Montage looks great but what it offers is not for me and I'm 100% OK with that.


Just my humble opinion: XF is waaay better vs. Montage. And, by the way: oficial specs of the XF are "2Gb Flash ROM", but there is a german company MUTEC, it makes a 2GB Flash Board for XF/MOXF, works fine. With these 2GB Mutec boards REAL memory of the MOXF can be expanded up to 2Gb (for XF up to 4Gb):)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 16
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Wow! I initiated this thread first on Motifator and then here on the official Yamaha forum long before the Montage was released.

I stated my personal feelings regarding the direction Yamaha took, not just with the Montage, that is fine, but with mainly discontinuing the Motif XF from production.

Did I ever think that there would be over 1,141 views and 16 responses? No.

One thing I will say, it does speak a lot that so many people are interested. As I have mentioned before, I, and others who own a Motif XF are set. Our concern is if either we, who love the Motif XF, or future owners (or those who try to buy one, but find it difficult because they are discontinued) find us left in the dust with updates, etc.

Support? I'm not concerned with that. Yamaha has proven itself to be good on that. I have been buying Yamaha instruments since the 70's. However, now that we are fully locked in the computer age, I agree with those who state above, will Yamaha continue to, in a software way, support the Motif XF? I have many keyboards from the 70's and 80's. All working just fine, all is well, don't need software updates. I got into the Motif realm late. I purchased my Motif XF8 in 2014. January of 2014 was the last update for the Motif XF (1.5) and I did expect there to be more to follow. Actually was told there would be.

I won't disclose my source, but I did talk with a true Yamaha source and was told that the Motif XF could have the one thing that I (as a software developer) suggested back in 2014 was to do a software/hardware upgrade for the Motif to utilize USB instead of Firewire since Firewire died a long time ago in the computer world. That source did tell me that it could be done no problem (as I suspected with my expertise in the field) but it was decided to not do this "upgrade" to the Motif due to putting development into the Montage and was simply a marketing strategy.

Yamaha has mentioned on many, many occasions that the Motif was a huge success. That equates to the fact that many, many people have purchased an extremely expensive instrument, the Motif. And beyond basic support, the Motif is done. That's a lot of people left in the dust expecting (hoping) that during a recession that many, many people have the money to buy a Montage. Well, top level, stadium/studio performers may have the money be able to buy a 4K instrument without batting an eye, but most of us who shelled out tough to get cash for the Motif, can't.

If Yamaha wants to dump some of the features of the Motif and create a new type of keyboard, no problem. Just please, don't forget about those of us who put out the hard earned cash for the greatest instrument to ever be created and continue to create new and exciting things, updates, etc. for us.

When I purchased my Motif XF8, the Apple OS was the only one supported for the Motif apps. I was told by both the store I purchased it from and Yamaha that Android counterparts of those apps would soon follow. Well we all know where that went. Apple is where Yamaha went and zero Android apps. Yes, I was told this by Yamaha representatives Android apps were around he corner.

To end this, I love Yamaha instruments, always have, always will. Recently I think they made a few bad decisions. Over eleven hundred reads of this post should say something. I don't see any other posts here in the forum getting that many hits. Doesn't that mean something?

Peace.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 17
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
So, let me make sure I got this right - Yamaha discontinues a true flagship workstation that's been the best thing to ever happen to most users, introduces a flagship synth that is everything but a workstation and proudly declares it is not a replacement of the Motif series while there is no replacement for the discontinued Motif. Nice!Since both products are geared to totally different crowds, not to mention that the majority of Motif users will never look at the Montage (because it does not do what Motif does and does not offer anything that Motif can't do with little help), that constitutes different market demands. People who do not belong in the Montage column will still look to buy a workstation that can do on its own everything that's expected from a workstation to do. But there will be no one since it's discontinued! So, in a nutshell, if I want to buy a Motif XF7, create patterns for my intro, verses, bridges and choruses, string them together in a song mode and start recording the parts in my DAW/console or just compose, edit and play the entire song WITHOUT the need to be permanently plugged into a computer (because Yamaha, you see, it is all about the instrument not about how many additional pieces of technology I need to make that same instrument do the things it should be able to do on its own) I'm left out in the cold. Because online retailers already cleared out the XF7 and the rest of the Motifs will be gone soon too. What are my choices? Second hand? Ebay? No thanks! I'm already looking elsewhere (as in other manufacturer). Yamaha, you have a black hole where Motif once was and you'll have to admit the huge mistake sooner or later. Once Montage falls short of sales and people keep asking for the damn full blown sequencer you'll have to do something about it. And by the way, the huge disco knob makes this Montage thing look like a cheap $200 Casio!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 18
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Dick wrote:

... introduces a flagship synth that is everything but a workstation and proudly declares it is not a replacement of the Motif series while there is no replacement for the discontinued Motif...

... I want to buy a Motif XF7, create patterns for my intro, verses, bridges and choruses, string them together in a song mode and start recording the parts in my DAW/console or just compose, edit and play the entire song WITHOUT the need to be permanently plugged into a computer ...

... Once Montage falls short of sales and people keep asking for the damn full blown sequencer you'll have to do something about it. And by the way, the huge disco knob makes this Montage thing look like a cheap $200 Casio!


I see your points Dick but at the same time I believe (a personal opinion of a novice musician) it was a right move! Yes MOTIF's era is over. With DAWs getting stronger and stronger for live performance there will be no need for a sequencer, patter or performance modes. As an example, the JOBs menu in PATTERN/SONG modes are not convenient enough when it comes to working with a DAW.
Even working with MOTIF XF's remote software is more convenient compared to editing parameters. How can you copy let's say all the Filter parameters of an element and paste it into another element on the keyboard itself? Not possible! but with the remote tool you can do it in a blink of an eye.

I played with FMX engine and it sounds great. The onboard sound interface is a great upgrade you can route the VOICEs (or maybe performances?) to one of the 16 channels and do whatever you want with them in a DAW. These features are great!

I actually was hoping to see an upgrade in the eXpanded Articulation section and AWM2 engine but alas that didn't happen. In my humble opinion, what software really sucks at is loading samples and the amount of resources it uses is huge for a live performance. So for example, If I could have a Violin sound like Tyros5 or a Piano voice with SCM and sympathetic resonance that was going to be very sweet. Although I really liked the FM-X engine or MOD7 in Kronos, VSTs can handle them elegantly and in a reasonable time.

... So give DAW a try and you won't get back to MOTIF's interface anymore unless you really need it.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 19
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
A wrote:

Dick wrote:

... introduces a flagship synth that is everything but a workstation and proudly declares it is not a replacement of the Motif series while there is no replacement for the discontinued Motif...

... I want to buy a Motif XF7, create patterns for my intro, verses, bridges and choruses, string them together in a song mode and start recording the parts in my DAW/console or just compose, edit and play the entire song WITHOUT the need to be permanently plugged into a computer ...

... Once Montage falls short of sales and people keep asking for the damn full blown sequencer you'll have to do something about it. And by the way, the huge disco knob makes this Montage thing look like a cheap $200 Casio!


I see your points Dick but at the same time I believe (a personal opinion of a novice musician) it was a right move! Yes MOTIF's era is over. With DAWs getting stronger and stronger for live performance there will be no need for a sequencer, patter or performance modes. As an example, the JOBs menu in PATTERN/SONG modes are not convenient enough when it comes to working with a DAW.
Even working with MOTIF XF's remote software is more convenient compared to editing parameters. How can you copy let's say all the Filter parameters of an element and paste it into another element on the keyboard itself? Not possible! but with the remote tool you can do it in a blink of an eye.

I played with FMX engine and it sounds great. The onboard sound interface is a great upgrade you can route the VOICEs (or maybe performances?) to one of the 16 channels and do whatever you want with them in a DAW. These features are great!

I actually was hoping to see an upgrade in the eXpanded Articulation section and AWM2 engine but alas that didn't happen. In my humble opinion, what software really sucks at is loading samples and the amount of resources it uses is huge for a live performance. So for example, If I could have a Violin sound like Tyros5 or a Piano voice with SCM and sympathetic resonance that was going to be very sweet. Although I really liked the FM-X engine or MOD7 in Kronos, VSTs can handle them elegantly and in a reasonable time.

... So give DAW a try and you won't get back to MOTIF's interface anymore unless you really need it.


I'm not against Montage in itself but rather the fact they got rid of the most successful workstation in history and not replacing it with anything. Montage is probably great for live situations but in studio where workflow, speed and convenience is everything it will fall short. Most importantly, it is the connection between the person and the instrument not a threesome that includes a person, an instrument and a computer. Have you seen a human being emotionally attached to a desktop? On the other hand, opening my first ES7 back in the day and just looking at it gave me the shivers! Having a full blown sequencer is a must for those who compose and record in a studio (and not only) situation and no DAW regardless how powerful (I have Samplitude x2, Sequoia 13 and Cubendo) can hold a candle to those hardware capabilities built-in the instrument itself. I don't know where you came from but strong sequencers have been the most sought after technical piece of equipment from the dawn of music programing and recording. Montage relies only on marketing hype about its two engines but they are not even new technology. To market and hope to establish a brand solely on sounds bundled in a hardware box is an idea that proved wrong 15 years ago. I dare anyone who claims Montage can do everything, sound better and more than a Motif to sit side by side with me and write, program, sequence, edit and record the same musical piece using Montage and a computer on one hand and me, with my Motif XF7, Omnisphere 2 and Nexus 2 with all the available sound libraries. Yamaha just made me strongly look at the Kronos X even though its sequencing capabilities are weaker than those found on Motif XF. Worst of all, if I need a new Motif in the future I won't able to get it...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MOTIFXF
  3. # 20
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