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  1. Andrew
  2. Sherlock Holmes The Voice
  3. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  4. Sunday, 22 August 2021
Where are patterns saved onto the PC when using MODX Connect to get the patterns off the MODX?

How is this done all at once?

How is it done individually?

It's doing something, and the MODX is telling me it's exporting data... but where is an absolute mystery.
Responses (26)
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I suppose the first place to look would be a folder in Users\username\AppData\Local or Roaming.

Or you can use a file activity monitor app:
https://www.raymond.cc/blog/3-portable-tools-monitor-files-folders-changes/
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 1
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Where are patterns saved onto the PC when using MODX Connect to get the patterns off the MODX?
Patterns and Songs are initially ‘stored’ on the MODX, not on your computer. They are automatically stored in the internal memory of the MODX. They remain in memory until you either specifically DELETE them, or you initialize all data in your MODX.

Press [UTILITY] > “Contents” > “Data Utility” > your Songs are in the folder labeled “Song” (you can store 128 Songs in the system memory).
Your Patterns are in the folder labeled “Pattern” (you can store 128 Patterns in the system memory).

Hint: It is from these internal system Folders that you can review and manage your Songs and Patterns (Rename, Delete)
Your Songs and Patterns remain in MODX memory even when you load a new User Bank — this is because, any Song and any Pattern can be linked with a Performance that is in ROM (as a Library or as a Preset) not just those currently in the User Bank.
__ when you create data using the MODX sequencer, it is automatically stored in these folders. This is true of the data you LOAD as a .mid file. A copy of it goes to either the Song or Pattern Folder. When you LOAD a .mid file to MODX, you are asked to direct it to either the Song or Pattern folder.

If you wish to copy your Songs or Patterns from the internal MODX storage area to your computer, you can:
__ Use MODX CONNECT to “drag and drop” them directly via USB connection to your computer. You can drop them to your desktop, to a specific folder, or directly into your favorite DAW. Each Song is moved individually because this is how most DAWs deal with .mid files.
Each Pattern is moved Scene-by-Scene (8), because this is how Patterns are created — each Pattern Scene is a separate .mid file, because this is how MODX deals with Scenes.

__ When you are working on a Song or Pattern, you are offered an additional option to “Save as .mid file”. This appears on the main Song screen. When you’re working with Patterns, touch “Edit/Job” > “Overview” to see the option. As you select each Pattern Scene, you are offered to “Save as .mid file”.
This is how you can backup your Songs and Patterns to external storage devices (USB stick). The USB stick can be read by your computer — and the .mid file is universally recognized by all sequencers. You would keep a copy of your Sequences on USB stick so they can travel with you.

Pattern Scenes can be 1-256 measures in Length.
Pattern Scenes can be “appended” — one can be added to the end of another increasing Length - up to a maximum 256 Measures.
Pattern Scenes can be “chained” — placed in a specific play order, then “Converted to Song”

Extra Credit:
Link — Mastering MODX: Using MODX CONNECT to Import Performance Patterns
Link — Tech Talk Live: MONTAGE/MODX Connect
  1. more than a month ago
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When you are working on a Song or Pattern, you are offered an additional option to “Save as .mid file”. This appears on the main Song screen. When you’re working with Patterns, touch “Edit/Job” > “Overview” to see the option. As you select each Pattern Scene, you are offered to “Save as .mid file”.


This doesn't strike you as being extremely laborious when the question is about offloading every pattern?



This is how you can backup your Songs and Patterns to external storage devices (USB stick). The USB stick can be read by your computer — and the .mid file is universally recognized by all sequencers. You would keep a copy of your Sequences on USB stick so they can travel with you.


It seems there is no way to store the linked Performance with this. How do you note which patterns work with which performances, so when a Pattern is reloaded from the USB it's no trouble to hook it back up?



Pattern Scenes can be “appended” — one can be added to the end of another increasing Length - up to a maximum 256 Measures.


How is this done?
-------------

It seems very odd that it's not possible to mass offload all Patterns at once, along with at least a named reference to the Performances they are "linked" with/to.

I know about the full Backup method of doing a total backup including patterns. That's not helpful, either, as it seems impossible to extract Patterns from this file.
  1. more than a month ago
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Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
First, you’re welcome.

This doesn't strike you as being extremely laborious when the question is about offloading every pattern?
No. it doesn’t. It is how you create them, it is how you Save them. They Store automatically to internal memory.

It seems there is no way to store the linked Performance with this. How do you note which patterns work with which performances, so when a Pattern is reloaded from the USB it's no trouble to hook it back up?
Tap the box that says “Store Pattern & Perf Settings” this creates a link between the Performance location (Performance folder) and the Pattern (Pattern folder).
When you recall the Pattern by number 001-128, it will automatically recall the linked Performance.
See pages 26-27 for details on the Pattern main screen features/functions.

STORE = internal memory
SAVE = external storage device

How is this done?
See page 39 of the Supplementary Manual for info on Appending Pattern Scene data.

If you’ve only been making 4 and 8 measure Pattern Phrases, it might seem like a lot of work… but those who know how to Append Scenes wind up with Scenes worth (worthy of) the effort to Save as a .mid file. Patterns are designed as an assembly tool (now this does not mean you have to use it like it was designed, but it does mean you need to appreciate the workflow it suggests)… which is you use the Pattern Scene as a construction tool to build the musical sections (Scene by Scene)… Scenes can be Appended or Split, moved to and from the linear Song structure. Then “chained” to make a linear Song.

With this as the workflow, there really is no reason to save each Pattern Scene to a separate .mid file. But since there are just 8 of them and since they are immediately and automatically stored in the internal Pattern folder. The time to export them to a computer would be to a DAW. And even then, the Chain and Convert to Song functions make complete sense as the easiest/best method to move the data to a computer.

MONTAGE Terminology
MIDI SONG = linear structure that include MIDI event data combined with a synth Performance.
PATTERN = loop record sequencer, made up of 8 Scenes (musical sections) that includes MIDI event data combined with a synth Performance.
.MID = a universal file format that includes only the MIDI event data

Work with it awhile, you’ll figure it out… it’s not that difficult.
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are you deliberately avoiding the question?

How does an offloaded (saved to external storage) Pattern, maintain a link to the Performance.

As to it not being laborious to offload 128 * 8 Pattern Scenes... Can I send you my backup file, you do the offloading to a USB stick and send back all the unique patterns?

It's incredibly laborious, to me.
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  3. # 5
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
are you deliberately avoiding the question?
I answered your question.

How does an offloaded (saved to external storage) Pattern, maintain a link to the Performance.
It doesn’t — a stored Pattern is linked with a Performance — this all takes place inside the MONTAGE.
Again:
STORE = internal memory
SAVE = external memory

Work with it awhile, you’ll figure it out… it’s not that difficult.
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  3. # 6
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are you deliberately avoiding the question?
I answered your question.

How does an offloaded (saved to external storage) Pattern, maintain a link to the Performance.
It doesn’t — a stored Pattern is linked with a Performance — this all takes place inside the MONTAGE.
Again:
STORE = internal memory
SAVE = external memory

Work with it awhile, you’ll figure it out… it’s not that difficult.


So once a pattern is offloaded to an external storage device, the only way to find what performance it was once linked to is to write it down?
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How do you note which patterns work with which performances, so when a Pattern is reloaded from the USB it's no trouble to hook it back up?


You could rename the song/pattern to something that would make this associative cue for the link relationship. Perhaps even the exact same name. Following such a convention would make it clear which Performance was linked when saving to a USB stick.

Internally, the link is maintained - so you would also know by loading the internal pattern or song (that has been linked) and the Performance will be pulled in with it. Therefore, even if you did not save a filename that hints towards the link - you can still unravel this by loading the internal song or pattern that matches your save file's name. As long as you have not, renamed either of the files (save file or internal song/pattern).
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  3. # 8
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How do you note which patterns work with which performances, so when a Pattern is reloaded from the USB it's no trouble to hook it back up?


You could rename the song/pattern to something that would make this associative cue for the link relationship. Perhaps even the exact same name. Following such a convention would make it clear which Performance was linked when saving to a USB stick.

Internally, the link is maintained - so you would also know by loading the internal pattern or song (that has been linked) and the Performance will be pulled in with it. Therefore, even if you did not save a filename that hints towards the link - you can still unravel this by loading the internal song or pattern that matches your save file's name. As long as you have not, renamed either of the files (save file or internal song/pattern).



I'm not sure why you and BadMister are focused on the internal Patterns.

They need to be Saved out because the Pattern Sequencer is full. Daughter is highly productive little experimenter with the Pattern Sequencer. I'm trying to free it up for her, by getting things out of it. All of it would be nice, so she can crack on without worrying about running out of space for a while.

She can't be the only one that's hitting this limitation of the Pattern Sequencer.

She does not like working with DAWs, not even with an MPC. She's become a bit of a fan of the Pattern Sequencer, despite my reservations about it.

Do you happen to know if there's anywhere I can extract the Patterns from a full backup? That might be the easiest way to solve this problem... do a full backup, to "export" every pattern, extract them, put them somewhere she can grab one when she wants, and reload it onto the MOD - only when she wants to work on that one again...

etc.
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 9
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Do you happen to know if there's anywhere I can extract the Patterns from a full backup? That might be the easiest way to solve this problem... do a full backup, to "export" every pattern, extract them, put them somewhere she can grab one when she wants, and reload it onto the MOD - only when she wants to work on that one again...

Looks like an obvious feature for a future version of John Melas' tools...
Also, the guy doing these tools: http://www.xfactory-librarians.co.uk/products.html
just announced he's close to doing something similar for the Montage: https://www.yamahamusicians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=129&t=17973&p=101926#p101926
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 10
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Cheers, @Dragos,

Brings to mind the idea that a diff check on a backup done on an earlier firmware (before Pattern Sequencer) and after might reveal where and how the patterns are stored.

Now to see if it's possible to rollback firmwares...
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  3. # 11
Bad Mister
Yamaha
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A good work ethic to teach your daughter is, if it is worth the time to create, it worth the time to save it. If you do each one when you create it you don’t wind up in a situation where you are waiting for some third party to hack a 128 x 8 Scene solution for you.
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  3. # 12
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A good work ethic to teach your daughter is, if it is worth the time to create, it worth the time to save it. If you do each one when you create it you don’t wind up in a situation where you are waiting for some third party to hack a 128 x 8 Scene solution for you.



This kind of crap is beneath you.

You're better than this, when we're talking about a sketching tool and a child exploring creativity, iterating at a rapid rate, riffing on ideas through the looping facilities of the Pattern Sequencer, etc.

Next time, Yamaha should take the time to finish features to a polish becoming of a brand with their supposed pedigree, or open up their software for others to add more usability and general accomodation of empowering workflows.
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  3. # 13
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I'm not sure why you and BadMister are focused on the internal Patterns.


When you save a song or pattern to a USB stick - it doesn't carry with it the information you're requesting. Part of the questions asked along the way was how to know, once you you've saved a pattern or song, how to know how it was linked?

I'm not defending the system implementation - but you've got to work with the system until something better comes along. That was my approach in the answer. When the existing approach Yamaha has chosen doesn't fit your needs - or there's an improvement that can help then I'm all for suggesting ways to improve the system while identifying why the current system is deficient or otherwise not optimal. I mean, I do this all the time. I have a difference with how something was implemented all the time and voice that. I'm good with that. I'm also not affiliated with Yamaha so I have no investment in defending the design. I think it's good to have feedback from users because we all use the equipment differently and it's interesting to hear all the different approaches and how aspects of the keyboard work against some goals.

... so, without the saved pattern self-expressing what it was linked to I gave two possibilities of how to manage this. That you could name the pattern after the linked Performance and that would manually hint at the linkage. Or you could save it as any old name and as long as the name still matches at some date in the future (you haven't renamed the internal pattern/song, you haven't overwritten memory completely with some other backup, or otherwise broken an association with what is now your external USB's save name vs the inside) - then you could look at your USB stick name and recall that song/performance in order to "dig up" the association.

Is this ideal? No. Is it great? Maybe not. I'm not painting it under those terms. I'm just saying those are the ways I'm aware of to deal with this question given the tools provided today. If that isn't going to work for you then I have no judgement about that. That's your call to make. I'm not saying to live with the system the way it is forever without complaints. Once you know what's available - you can make requests to enhance the system to better fit your needs. Best done on ideascale because the R&D group has visibility to the ideascale site which increases overall the visibility of your enhancement request to engineering side that would make coding changes should Yamaha elect to provide the changes.
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 14
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Andrew,

You can create a backup file, which will contain all of your Patterns. Then you can initialize your Montage, and start over. Quick and easy, except for the long time it takes to write a backup file to a flash drive.

Learning to operate something as complex as the Montage takes a lot of mental effort, which you are wasting instead on insulting people who are trying to help you, while also setting a poor example for your daughter.
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 15
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Andrew,

You can create a backup file, which will contain all of your Patterns. Then you can initialize your Montage, and start over. Quick and easy, except for the long time it takes to write a backup file to a flash drive.

Learning to operate something as complex as the Montage takes a lot of mental effort, which you are wasting instead on insulting people who are trying to help you, while also setting a poor example for your daughter.


Have you not read the thread?

I was the first to suggest this approach, and one of the reasons it's far less than ideal.

I was also the one to suggest it might be possible to extract the patterns from this backup file, and an initial way to reveal where they might be within the backup file.

@Jason, yes. All of that, and obviously it's only possible to work with what is, that's obviously the case, too.

However, let's not kid ourselves, this is less than an ideal for something as wonderful as the Pattern Sequencer (for those that enjoy it), and an oversight on Yamaha's part, at least.

I didn't go into this thinking that it wouldn't be possible to offload all Patterns at once, or that they'd lose any and all reference to their "LINKED" Performance by being offloaded. Those two things are very peculiar limitations that aren't easily worked around, as all means of offloading all Patterns have big limitations and/or are laborious.
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@Andrew , there's a new post on the other forum that I linked before, I specifically asked about patterns:
https://www.yamahamusicians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=101951#p101951

To answer the question about patterns and songs, they are only saved in X7A files, not X7U or X7L files.

My first release will not not support X7A (you have have to start somewhere) but later releases will. Having said that, I have done some advance testing to understand the structures of Songs and Patterns so am already most of the way there.
  1. more than a month ago
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@Dragos

THANK YOU!!!

Wonderful.

I hope soon. In the meantime, I will spend a few hours doing drag and drop, one by bloody one, and create a corresponding list of Performances, and be the "automatic file system" for my daughter.

Again, thank you, @Dragos!!!
  1. more than a month ago
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Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
@Andrew , there's a new post on the other forum that I linked before, I specifically asked about patterns:
https://www.yamahamusicians.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=101951#p101951

To answer the question about patterns and songs, they are only saved in X7A files, not X7U or X7L files.

My first release will not not support X7A (you have have to start somewhere) but later releases will. Having said that, I have done some advance testing to understand the structures of Songs and Patterns so am already most of the way there.



@Bad Mister / @Jason
Hey, just wondering if this is true regarding 'Songs' only being saved in X7A files but not in X7U or X7L..? (Note, I haven't fully followed this thread because I don't use Patterns, as I am fully DAW integrated)

My use case is strictly with Live Set, whereby I use Slot Type 'Song', saving a specific Song with a specific Performance, so that when playing Live, I can hit Play to start the Song sequencing for a particular Performance.

If I were to Save my User memory to a X7U User File (#1), then wipe out User memory by Loading a different X7U User File (#2), in order to check out the Performances, etc., and then once finished, I Load the previously saved X7U User File (#1) back into User memory, would all my Live Set "Song + Performance" no longer be linked or work properly?

Or as another example, let's say I wanted to create a new Library, so I backed up the User memory to a X7U User File (#1), then went to UTILITY > Data Utility, and deleted many of the Performances, Songs, Waveforms, Arps that I didn't want in my Library ... then I save the User memory area as a X7L Library File. Next I Load the previously saved X7U User File (#1) back into User memory, would all my Live Set "Song + Performance" no longer be linked or work properly in this scenario, or would all the Performances, Songs, Waveforms, Arps be added back and all my Live Set "Song + Performance" would still be linked & work properly?
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Hey, just wondering if this is true regarding 'Songs' only being saved in X7A files but not in X7U or X7L..?


Sounds right. Historically if you wanted just the MIDI data cataloged all together there was a separate file for that. X?G files for user arpeggios. X?S for songs. X?P for patterns. Or al "All" file for everything (almost - there were still options to opt out of some data even in an All file - to save load/save time or other reasons).

There's no song or pattern or arpeggio only cataloging. It's either one-by-one or All.

But to really answer your question - without the kind of depth of knowledge BM has for the product - I consult the manual. I know there's a picture in the reference manual that answers this. It shows what gets saved when and how memory is utilized. This is a Montage thread, so I'll look at the Montage manual. The answer would be the same for MODX except for the file extension number in the middle (8 for MODX vs 7 for Montage).

Page 22:
https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/9/812529/montage_en_rm_a0.pdf

No, take that back. Maybe the supplemental manual has an update for this drawing. Maybe not. X7A was added after the first printing of the reference manual and the reference manual hasn't been updated. The MODX reference manual has been updated and is useful enough as a reference for Montage 99% of the time. BTW: that is what I actually reference most of the time even for Montage because it's more up-to-date by nature of when MODX was released.

Page 23:
https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/2/1192582/modx_en_rm_a0.pdf

You can see from the picture that "User Memory" has lots of lines going to/from a USB flash drive. This tells you exactly what is saved when.

You see 3 major areas:

For User
Performances, Arpeggios, Motion Sequences, Curves, Live Set, Waveforms, Utility, Quick Setup (Templates), and Audition Phrases

For Library
(it doesn't show it - but it has all the same stuff as the user area except not utility and other "globals" )

Song
This is where song files go

-----

Now - look at that song box. It's inside "User Memory" which includes everything: "For User", "For Library" AND "Song". The only lines that save the "Song" area are EITHER "User Memory" which has a line to "File Extension .X8A" on the USB flash drive OR "File extensions .MID" - meaning you can individually save a MID file to the flash drive. Not a catalog of a bunch of songs.

There are no lines from "Song" under "User Memory" to the Library or User (X8L, X8U) files on a flash drive.

Sorry for the long ride (I just leave it here to show how I look things up) - but the answer is "Yes, songs are saved in X7A and NOT X7U or X7L". And adding -- or .MID. But that's not songS. That's just song (singular).
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