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  1. Ryan
  2. MOXF Series Music Production Synthesizers
  3. Friday, 14 July 2017
I upgraded to Cubase 9 Pro from AI 8. I had a song with one midi track triggering drums on a Yamaha MOFX and another instrument track of HALion drums using the same exact midi data copy and pasted that I created with AI8.

After the upgrade, the MOFX track is triggering slightly ahead of the Halion track and they are way out of sync. But when I open it up in AI8 they are perfectly in sync. Why does 9 mess it up??

And the Halion track is definitely the one that did not budge because it is still in sync with the other audio tracks in the song, so its definitely the MOFX track that got messed up.
Responses (10)
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
You maybe jumping to the wrong conclusion. With any computer based problem troubleshooting begins with verifying the setup. You've changed versions of Cubase, so you should anticipate some setup differences. Let's start with computer type, operating system, driver version, etc.
Then let's verify your Cubase settings.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The problem has now been identified but the solution is still unknown. When using Cubase pro I inserted a multiband compressor into the output mix channel. This is not available in AI 8. When I took the compressor out everything is in sync again.

I also posted this on the Steinberg forums and a Steinberg rep (MJ) said the compressor causes a delay but all tracks should have delay compensation, but we still haven't figured out why tracks triggering an external keyboard are out of sync. If you have any ideas please let me know.
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Ok I thought there would be information not provided. I'd be happy to help you but need to know what (exactly) we're dealing with. Are you using the MOXF as your audio interface? If yes, where are you set to monitor? Are you monitoring Direct or post Cubase?
Where did you insert the multiband compressor? Since there is one in the Keyboard and there is one in Cubase, I'd need a much better description about what I'd setup. It simply is not clear from what you've posted here. If you'd like my help let me know...
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Sure...I am using a Focusrite 6i6 as interface and audio driver in Cubase. The MOFX is hooked up to computer via USB, and the outputs of the MOFX are hooked up to the Focusrite. Monitors come off of Focusrite.

The multiband compressor is in the first insert slot of the main Stereo Out channel on Cubase.

Please bear with me as I am not very technical and somewhat of a beginner in Cubase. For the monitoring I'm not really sure. Perhaps what I'm hearing is the triggered sound that is going to the MOFX outputs, to the Focusrite, then monitors?

Should I instead be listening to the signal that is being routed back to Cubase after being gererated in the MOFX?

Thanks alot for your help...
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
It's MOXF, by the way, not MOFX.... since you are not using the MOXF as your audio interface then you need to ensure you are properly setup to monitor with your device. Usually your decision for where in the signal flow you are choosing to monitor takes place with your interface and DAW settings.

Please bear with me as I am not very technical and somewhat of a beginner in Cubase. For the monitoring I'm not really sure. Perhaps what I'm hearing is the triggered sound that is going to the MOFX outputs, to the Focusrite, then monitors?
This is very important information and we are now more certain than ever that this definitely has something to do with your issue.

Sorry I am not familiar with your particular audio interface, but they all function in a similar fashion... so while I can't tell you specifically what settings to make, I can tell you generally what you must look for...

The role of the audio interface is to take audio input from your various instrument, microphones, etc, and prepare digital audio for the computer and route analog audio to your sound system. Now think about this in terms of just listening and then when recording.

Audio that goes to the speakers can pass directly through the audio interface... standard 1/4" cables coming IN from your MOXF, and 1/4" cables OUT to the speakers. That same incoming signal can be converted to digital signal, routed via USB to your computer and recorded in the DAW (Cubase). You can also then route that recorded signal to the DAW OUTs (to your audio interface) via USB where it is converted back to analog and sent to the speakers.

In the race to the finish line: The direct signal gets there first!
The signal that is converted to digital, recorded, sent back converted to analog, gets there second... it's called the latent signal (for good reason)

You can choose to listen to one, or the other... and if you're not careful, you might wind up listening to both. The important thing to know is... it's a choice *you* make. There are times you'll want to listen to the direct (zero latency) signal, there will be times when you want to listen to the signal post the DAW. There will be times when you are listening to audio on the computer playing back, at the same time you are adding a new audio recording and you want to hear yourself "live".

So learning how you monitor is going to be an important skill to master.

If you are applying that multi-band compressor to the main stereo output from Cubase... understand that you will be monitoring the latent signal if you want to hear it. That is, the signal has already been through Cubase and is the signal that takes the long route to the speakers.

We don't have enough info from you quite yet, but if you are hearing one direct and the other after traversing the routing, that could account for "out of sync" (without hearing it or knowing your current settings, it's hard to say what you are hearing)

The direct (all analog) signal (MOXF > audio interface > speakers) will not have the multiband compressor applied.
The signal that goes MOXF > audio interface (digital) > Computer > Track Out > Main Cubase Out > audio interface (analog) > speaker will have the multiband computer

You want to find out about how to select what you are monitoring with your Focusrite unit.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Yes, it appears that is the crux of the situation. I was listening to the signal going out the MOXF LR outputs to the focusrite, then speakers. I simply unplugged the outputs of the MOXF and the tracks went silent.


But that brings up the next problem. It doesn't appear any tone is being returned to Cubase. The midi data is playing the keyboard, but its not reaching Cubase or I'm not tapping into it correctly. The audio signal should be going from the tone generator back through the USB to Cubase right? Again I am using the Focusrite driver, do I need to switch to the MOXF driver to allow that?

Thanks again for the help here..
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
You need to decide which device, the MOXF or the Focusrite, is going to be your audio interface. Pick one. Connect your speakers to that device. Connect the outputs of all items to that selected device. And importantly: use the driver for the device you've selected.

When you are using the Focusrite as your audio interface (use its recommended driver)... you would connect the Focusrite's main L&R Outputs to your speakers.
You would connect the main L&R Outputs of the MOXF to the Focusrite as a pair of inputs.

Again, the audio interface takes instrument/microphone Inputs and sends digital audio Out to your computer via USB. It also receives digital audio from the computer via USB and sends analog audio Out to your speakers.

You can select to monitor the MOXF direct path through the interface to the speakers... OR ...you can monitor the MOXF signal after it travels through Cubase. Cubase returns digital audio to the interface which then outputs analog to your speakers.
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Bad Mister wrote:

You need to decide which device, the MOXF or the Focusrite, is going to be your audio interface. Pick one. Connect your speakers to that device. Connect the outputs of all items to that selected device. And importantly: use the driver for the device you've selected.

When you are using the Focusrite as your audio interface (use its recommended driver)... you would connect the Focusrite's main L&R Outputs to your speakers.
You would connect the main L&R Outputs of the MOXF to the Focusrite as a pair of inputs.


Exactly my setup...

Again, the audio interface takes instrument/microphone Inputs and sends digital audio Out to your computer via USB. It also receives digital audio from the computer via USB and sends analog audio Out to your speakers.

You can select to monitor the MOXF direct path through the interface to the speakers... OR ...you can monitor the MOXF signal after it travels through Cubase. Cubase returns digital audio to the interface which then outputs analog to your speakers.



Appreciate your patience with this. Just to make sure I have this straight, with the setup I have now...the USB between the MOFX and computer would NOT be transmitting any audio....its only used as a MIDI connection correct? It can only be used for transmitting audio if the MOXF was used as the driver?

Now I have to figure out how to capture audio from a midi track. When using the "render in place" for the MOXF track I get a stereo track of silence.

Update: I think have figured it out now and am able to isolate the sound coming in to the audio lane track...still in sync when I turn on the compressor. However, I still haven't figured out how to use the render in place with MOXF VST track.
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Appreciate your patience with this. Just to make sure I have this straight, with the setup I have now...the USB between the MOFX and computer would NOT be transmitting any audio....its only used as a MIDI connection correct? It can only be used for transmitting audio if the MOXF was used as the driver?
Correct! The Yamaha Steinberg USB Driver is a dual driver, you are using the MIDI Communication portion of the driver. You are not using the Audio portion, as you've selected Focusrite as the interface. The driver is designed so you can select to use what you desire.

Now I have to figure out how to capture audio from a midi track. When using the "render in place" for the MOXF track I get a stereo track of silence.

Update: I think have figured it out now and am able to isolate the sound coming in to the audio lane track...still in sync when I turn on the compressor. However, I still haven't figured out how to use the render in place with MOXF VST track.

If your MIDI Track's OUTPUT is properly assigned to "MOXF XF VST - MIDI IN" and you have the VSTi SETUP set to return audio to the DAW (on the MOXF Editor go to FILE > VSTi SETUP > Make sure you have the AUDIO RETURN SETUP properly... You will be using a single stereo output from MOXF which will RETURN audio to the computer via two inputs on the Focusrite. This is what you setup here... Audio returning from the MOXF VST MIDI data arrives in the computer via this connection.

REAL AUDIO will be rendered in REAL TIME. When you are receiving the audio IN to Cubase from an external instrument - that real instrument creates (generates) audio in real time. If you have a segment that is 4 bars long, you will need to play those four bars at tempo to render the audio at the tempo of the project. Of course.

Okay, let's start this answer with how you need to setup your MOXF VST in order to use RENDER IN PLACE.

In Cubase Pro 8 and 8.5 (and now in Pro 9) setup to use the S90 XS/S70 XS, Motif XS/XF or MOXF XF as VST:
Go to DEVICES > VST INSTRUMENTS > RACK INSTRUMENTS > select EXTERNAL > MOXF VST
You will be asked to create a MIDI Track assigned to this plug-in VST... do so

Cubase sets up a VST INSTRUMENTS folder with the MOXF VST SubFolder in it.
In the MOXF VST SubFolder you will see the AUTOMATION LANE and the AUDIO LANE set to receive audio coming from the MOXF's L&R outputs
Below this is the MIDI Track that is assigned MIDI OUT = "MOXF VST - Midi In"

Shown below is a screenshot showing the Motif XF VST (it would be similar for the S-series and MOXF-series).

/images/Motif_XF/CustomerQA/ActivityMeters.png

When you play the MOXF or when you playback your track you should see a single wide bar of MIDI Activity on the MIDI Track _ this is MIDI data being *sent* to the MOXF VST's MIDI IN... you should see the keyboard graphic in the Editor respond to your playing the MOXF and/or when playing back data from Cubase. The EDITOR is 1:1 with the MOXF. MIDI arrives at the MOXF hardware... which generates AUDIO in response to these MIDI messages. The AUDIO is routed back (Returned) to CUBASE through the MOXF VSTi Setup and arrives at the AUDIO LANE... You should see audio (stereo AUDIO - you can tell it is stereo as there are two thin bars of activity, one for the left and the other for the right) - see graphic above.

If you do not see this stereo AUDIO activity on the AUDIO LANE of the Active MOXF Return - you will not be able to RENDER IN PLACE - you will not be able to EXPORT AUDIO MIXDOWN - because you are not returning audio properly to Cubase.

Shown below - data in the Track from measure 5-8 is "rendered in place" to an audio track - this mutes the MIDI data during this time and plays the audio clip between measures 5-8...

/images/Motif_XF/CustomerQA/RenderInPlace.png

When setup properly and executed you should notice no change / no difference between the MIDI data, the Audio data, back to the MIDI data...
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Ah yes...unmuting the audio lane track that was minimized in the VST folder helped immensely! ;)

Its a learning curve for sure..
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