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  1. Simon
  2. Vanity Monster
  3. MONTAGE
  4. Saturday, 03 February 2018
Before i talk about "what is on my mind" let me first say i am in many ways very pleased with my Montage 7....but...
Montage 2.0 still did not address the current Midi situation that many have called for.... having a 3rd Midi Mode (Midi+) for setting Midi Channels for the Parts, this could/would complement the current other two Midi Modes (Single and Mulit) this is still very much needed by many, Unfortunately what we still have here with Montage 2.0 is a garden wall built around the current Midi restrictive design when trying to use Montage and Midi in the traditional sense with other keyboards, Yamaha seems fixed in this debate when trying to understand the argument, if this new 3rd option could be introduced and even if this restrict the ethos of montage in some way it would still allow some flexibly in certain situations in a traditional sense with a complex midi keyboard rig having a 3rd Midi Mode (Midi+) which has been missing from Montage as part of the stardard we have always known which many have called for..this includes a famous name in a recent interview while talking about his on-stage keyboard rig when complimenting the Montage, Don't get me wrong Montage is still a fantastic keyboard but there is room for further improvement, Let's hope the engineers at Yamaha consider this, So to conclude...this would be a 3rd options not a fixed position to compliment the other two Midi Modes for Montage.
Responses (32)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi Simon,
I could not agree more!

Yamaha, please fix the midi implementation, so we can freely choose the receive channel of each part!

Thanks in advance

Jeroen
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I totally agree!!!!..Love my Montage but the lack of being able to freely change midi receive channels per part has been frustrating and its hard to understand why it isn't at least an option when needed even if it is at the sacrifice of some of the more esoteric Montage functions...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
+1

the same here, midi out is fabulous on montage (with zone flexibility) but midi in is less than basilar, let us assign midi channel of the parts for incoming message.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
+1
Montage is greate keyboard but this loosing functionality sometimes induce me to think about sell it. I hope this will be fixed soon
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I have been sitting and researching. And making notes of things said By Yamaha. So I could post this very subject.
And I do not like to call out People on Statements.
But....
Just last week. Bad MR. Told a user. That The 'Montage MIDI was Standard. And May have said it as 'Montage MIDI is not sub-Standard.
*Very hard to search right on this Board.
Well. I am Sorry for calling You out on this Bad MR. This is a outright Misrepresentation of the facts!
The MIDI is sub-Standard on the Montage. And Absolutely. Non-Standard.
MIDI technology was standardized in 1983. Channel 10 is Drums. This Industry MIDI Standard. Can not be addressed
by a keyboard sending MIDI to the Montage.(Channel 1 also has some kind of problem with Volume?)
Now You can Buy 3rd. Party Karma for the Motif.
But here is my Question and Answer to Karma's Stephen Kay.(I asked this 4 months ago)
">Hi
>Any chance we will see Karma for the Montage series?
>I know they use midi internally. And that could be a problem.
>
>Sent from my iPad
Answer:
I think, honestly, no chance. Sorry.
- Stephen Kay
KARMA Developer"
.

Now he avoided. Getting into The MIDI Problem on the Montage. But really. That is The entire problem!!!!
If they added MIDI+ IE: MIDI Standard for just 8 Channels.
(Must include MIDI 1-7 & 10' and Ch 10 has to be on performance. Slot 1 or 8. So we know where it is.)
As an above poster so eloquently put it. "at the sacrifice of some of the more esoteric Montage functions..."
Users would probably. Lose the Super knob Function. or Cripple it . And I am OK with that for a lot of things.
As long as I can switch back and forth.
As far as a MIDI+ for all 16 Channels. From What I understand about the internal use of MIDI on the Montage.
I do not think it is possible. As this would probably require. Hardware added. IE: A Super Motif hardware module.
And Yamaha. Certainly does not want to Recall the Montage.
(But honestly. I find the Arrogance of. Just Avoiding an industry standard. With no disclosure. Just Infuriating!).

Now because of EU laws. And Luckily. My States Laws. Yamaha. Absolutely. Does not want to admit this!
In the EU. There could be a Rash of. No Argument Refunds. (Man I wish we had EU laws. In the USA.)
And in the USA. States that have Small Claims Laws like mine. Unless there is a Visible Disclaimer.
'Midi is Not Standard' It is an automatic win.
And the Claimant. Usually Gets to keep the product and full refund and refunded Legal costs. Takes about 3-6 months. From filing date.
I have about 5 months left to file something. And I so hoped. That 2.0 was going to make a fix to the MIDI problem.
All I want Is proper midi. Not just Channel 1. There is a Industry MIDI standard For a Reason. So Users can rely on it.
Even if only 8 Channels. I want to play the Montage. From another Keyboard. And
As I can do with Almost(99%). Any other keyboard on the market.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 5
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi Tom,

How sure are you about EU law because if I could get my money back on this I would in an instant!

I have had mine for excess of a year and find it a PITA to use and so if
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I would also appreciate that Yamaha would finally allow users to configure the MIDI receive channel per part. And I am pretty sure this is totally possible on the current Montage hardware without much hassle. And without sacrificing anything else. This opinion is based on the fact that I am a professional software developer with lots of experience developing MIDI software. Why they don't do it, I am at a total loss of understanding. If I can do that with a $5 hardware addition to the Montage, they can as well. However still the Montage is a the best synth I have ever seen.

Tom,

your claim about Montage violating the MIDI specification is totally wrong. First, the assignment of channel 10 is from General MIDI, not from the normal MIDI specification. Second you can totally have drums on channel 10 on Montage, just assign the drums to part 10. And believe me there is no requirement at all in the MIDI standard to support more than 1 channel, to support drums at all, to support anything else than one fixed channel and so on. Or do you seriously think all those analog synthesizers which support only one sound at the same time violate the MIDI standard??? Even if you have a synthesizer which only can do one voice on fixed channel 1 it is totally within the MIDI specification.

Apart from that I have the feeling that you are very negative about the Montage. This at least the second thread where you talk about suing Yamaha based on wrong assumptions. Your assumptions in the flash thread were wrong, but your claims were very strong. Same here. I think if you are so worried about and annoyed by the Montage you should probably sell it. That would probably make you feel better. At least please try to calm down and avoid such strong comments based on wrong claims.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 7
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Yes I agree with Stefan here... I put this post up when considering a solution that would benefit all... any suggestions that legal action is required is probably not going to be helpful in any way... what we need is intelect, logic, common sense and a good healthy debate with cool heads please... diplomacy is necessary when looking for a better outcome, thank you........
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Simon wrote:

Yes I agree with Stefan here... I put this post up when considering a solution that would benefit all... any suggestions that legal action is required is probably not going to be helpful in any way... what we need is intelect, logic, common sense and a good healthy debate with cool heads please... diplomacy is necessary when looking for a better outcome, thank you........


+1!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Right - previously pointed out the difference between violating MIDI spec and violating conventions. Also pointed out the same observation that the drum complaint does not violate even general MIDI since you are free to assign a GM drum PART to PART 10 which receives on MIDI Channel 10.

This may be semantics - but it is important to be accurate. Violating a spec is fairly severe and not following convention is relatively less severe.

I've previously lobbied for being able to assign PARTs to any MIDI receive channel (including repeated MIDI channels for one way to layer using external MIDI controllers). I do not see any spec violation here - just one feature bullet which puts Yamaha at a disadvantage (if this feature is important to you) to other 16-channel multitimbral keyboards on the market. There are several and some have had this in their design DNA for a decade or more.

Assigning input MIDI channels is not necessarily universal - but there are enough examples out there that at least we can say there is a "camp"/"collective" of solutions that do allow for assigning MIDI input channel to what is considered a "PART" on other keyboards.

If you allow a computer to be "in the middle" between your external controller and Montage - it is possible to remap MIDI channels so you can accomplish the "same thing" as assigning arbitrary MIDI input channel numbers (on Montage) would do. It'd be nice not to have to do this. It's similar to the problem pointed out before with a rotary speaker that was not "in the same class" as external rotary speaker pedals -- so people solved this issue by paying for an external pedal to provide the rotary speaker effect and bypass Yamaha's internal one. Eventually - Yamaha shored up some of the "deficiencies" to create a better rotary speaker mousetrap and possibly approach the class of other rotary speaker simulators so external gear was not as needed. There are lots of parallels here.

Informing Yamaha of different use cases which assigning different MIDI input channels to PARTs is constructive. Offering feedback of any drawbacks for you if using the work-around (like a computer to remap MIDI channels) is constructive. Sometimes features are driven by research of how customers use the keyboard. The information may not be representative or the group "polled" may, on average, have enough disposable income/resources to solve the problem without having to mess with MIDI receive channels.

Some features are too close to the core of the architecture which does not lend itself to easily change. Yamaha may have even internally - pre-launch - been down this road and saw the whole solution "fell apart" when they tried to tinker with user-assignable MIDI receive channels.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
First. I love what the Montage can do. I do not love doing all my hard core practicing wear and tear on the Montage.
I would prefer to use a way less expensive controller for that. And I do not want to see a computer screen.
And I would also like to keep my muscle memory correct for. The Majority In the world. Normal Key-Bed Spacing.

Second. I have been cool headed about this for months! I have been asking.
I am Not any longer. The MIDI on the montage is Sub-Standard in so many ways!.
No one. Wants to Go back to all this Mapping insanity. And Yes I know. I Can Edit and go into Every Performance.
(what fun. I have over 2300? Just in my Lib's)
And Put the Drums on Ch. 10. I do not want the work. That Should have been done by default.
And then it Still would not Work anyway. Because. Then You have to hand map. When you shouldn't
And On every other Keyboard. I have ever owned. They are there by default. (and all of my Keyboard friends keys)
This is the Standard. Roland and Korg and ....Well They All follow.
If the user wants To change that. Then fine.
The Montage. Is also the only keyboard. I have ever owned. That When You plug in a MIDI cable. It will not play the Montage.
Unless You set to. 1 Ch. in. only. That is another sub-standard Midi implementation.(some keys would trigger an element here and there)

Doing my prep work for documentation of how all keyboards work.
We went in a local Guitar Center. And Plugged in Every Keyboard sitting next to another keyboard/Controller.
And Every one of them played from the midi being sent to it. From the next keyboard. Did not even look at what brands.
Did not change any settings on any sending keyboard/Controller
They all worked! They all played the receiving keyboards. Set/Performance/ Combi.... Correctly from the controlling keyboard.
This is Standard. The only keyboard. That would not. Was the Montage. On some we even sent multi channels.
And We Recorded all this to Video.
Now We have not found a used Motif in a local store. But I did not have this problem. When I had one.

Complaint OR Convention. Will be Semantics in the case of Law. Law Here. Is based 90% Intent.
What Was the Intent? In this Case. The User(Me). There is already Case law on this For MIDI.
And That Boiled down to. If a user See's MIDI IN/OUT/THRU plugs on a device.(Without a Visible disclaimer)
Then the user. Is safe to assume. Full standard Midi. That will operate. Exactly Like Like items. Because. Again.
Intent is the basis for almost all law in the USA. And The Montage. MIDI Can not be Used how I intended it to work. Normal!
And it was Months before I found out about the MIDI fiasco of the Montage.
I was having too much fun and learning it. And Never gave a thought.
About investigating the MIDI. Because. You should not have to even question it.

Now on to Your Wanting to be able to assign MIDI channels yourself.
That. You can not do it. That is also very Non-Standard. ? Complaint OR Convention.
Again. If Yamaha. Is the only manufacture restricting this. And only on 1 model.(Real important sticking point).
Then The buyer is safe to assume that. They can do it.
Yes At this point.
I would love for YA. to do the right thing by me. Contact my dealer. And Authorize a return.
Then. I will never have to spend another minute here. All this wasted time on this Board. Writing things.
Because. I almost never go To any forum. Been that way for 20 years. I do not enjoy it.
I see no use in reading things I do not care about. I only visit forums. If I have to. or Need info.
I Do not comment on things that do not directly concern me.
I maybe have 1-2 years left?
I would prefer those be just music and family. As long as I am able.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 11
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Tom wrote:

First. I love what the Montage can do. I do not love doing all my hard core practicing wear and tear on the Montage.
I would prefer to use a way less expensive controller for that. And I do not want to see a computer screen.
That’s really easy. Just put the Montage in the single channel mode and everything is playing from the other keyboard as from the Montage. I do the same using a Nord Piano as a controller. If that is your purpose then I cannot see the problem for you. The problem only arises when you try to do more complex things like controlling a piano with 2 or more parts from a remote keyboard and another sound with two or more parts from the Montage. And similar things...

And again (and I will leave the discussion after that): everything I have seen about the Montage’s MIDI implementation is fully according to the MIDI spec - at least the one I have read. Maybe you read a different one? If yes can you post the link?

Because who knows maybe you are right? Then I can hopefully return my 3 year old Nord Piano and get a full refund? That would be cool! After all, it does not do drums at all. And although it can do 2 sounds at the same time (not 16 as the Montage) they are tied to the same channel!!! If the Montage is violating the MIDI spec then the Nord is much worse. I would of course from the full refund money buy another used Nord Piano - or maybe a Montage. And come to think of it, my 30 year old Ensoniq VFX is even worse. Refund!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 12
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
@Stefan :p
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 13
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Stefan wrote:
That’s really easy. Just put the Montage in the single channel mode and everything is playing from the other keyboard as from the Montage. I do the same using a Nord Piano as a controller.


With my fullest respect to whatever you try to achieve with this, I don't see why would anybody buy an additional keyboard to control the same sounds which he could already play on the Montage.

Stefan wrote:The problem only arises when you try to do more complex things like controlling a piano with 2 or more parts from a remote keyboard and another sound with two or more parts from the Montage. And similar things...


That's exactly the problem here. 30 years after the multitimbral Korg M1 (and all others following) we suddenly have a flagship keyboard from a company with fixed midi channels and an almost impossible integration for midi controlling purposes without a computer. That's sad.

Stefan wrote:Because who knows maybe you are right? Then I can hopefully return my 3 year old Nord Piano and get a full refund? That would be cool!


What's the point in comparing apples to oranges here? You are comparing a bicycle to a spaceship. I don't see the point in doing that. Yes, Tom has some facts wrong. But these topic is about fixed midi channels an absolute innovation in this price and keyboard category with absolutely no benefit for the end user.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 14
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
@Tom

By now, through feedback from myself and other users you should be aware you can create and [STORE] (save) a Performance that will respond to general MIDI files the way you would want (and see other keyboards at Guitar Center doing). When you turn on your keyboard, this Performance is likely not going to load by default. However, you can also program system settings (which are saved) to recall this Performance. I believe the current firmware (1.6) will not load a specific Performance by default - the best you can do currently is set your Montage to power-on default to the Live Set and also assign your new Performance to a slot in the first page of your Live Set - then you would have just "one click" required before playing the general MIDI file.

From the announcements, my understanding is the version 2.0 firmware allows for loading a specific Performance on power-on. Therefore, as of this posting, there are two days to wait to realize Montage functioning identical to other keyboards with respect to the power-on ability to play your general MIDI files correctly.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 15
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Sladjan wrote:

Stefan wrote:
That’s really easy. Just put the Montage in the single channel mode and everything is playing from the other keyboard as from the Montage. I do the same using a Nord Piano as a controller.


With my fullest respect to whatever you try to achieve with this, I don't see why would anybody buy an additional keyboard to control the same sounds which he could already play on the Montage.

My understanding is that this is what Tom wanted to achieve: use a second keyboard to not wear down his Montage while practicing. That's what I was trying to address. In my case it's different: I have the Montage 6 because it is more compact and it has synth action. That's what I need. However I also like to play the Montage from a Piano action. That's what I can do when using my Nord as a controller. So I have the best of both worlds. Synth action for synth sounds, Piano action for Piano sounds. And I did not buy the Nord for that purpose. I had it long before the Montage.

Sladjan wrote:
Stefan wrote:The problem only arises when you try to do more complex things like controlling a piano with 2 or more parts from a remote keyboard and another sound with two or more parts from the Montage. And similar things...


That's exactly the problem here. 30 years after the multitimbral Korg M1 (and all others following) we suddenly have a flagship keyboard from a company with fixed midi channels and an almost impossible integration for midi controlling purposes without a computer. That's sad.


It should be clear from what I wrote above that I fully agree. However there is a difference between something which is sad and something which violates some spec. I was just pointing out that it is not violating the spec.
Sladjan wrote:
Stefan wrote:Because who knows maybe you are right? Then I can hopefully return my 3 year old Nord Piano and get a full refund? That would be cool!


What's the point in comparing apples to oranges here? You are comparing a bicycle to a spaceship. I don't see the point in doing that. Yes, Tom has some facts wrong. But these topic is about fixed midi channels an absolute innovation in this price and keyboard category with absolutely no benefit for the end user.


I am reasonably sure that the MIDI spec does not have a special chapter for spaceship (or flagship) synthesizers and other synthesizers. Again, I agree that I would like to see configurable MIDI in channels. However not having them is no grounds for legal action. That's what I try to point out. And this is argument is supported by the fact that if that was the case many other MIDI instruments would then also have the same problem. Like my Nord and Ensoniq keyboards. And when I bought it 30 years ago the Ensoniq was really of the spaceship class. Both from the point of view of sound and the point of view of price. Still is in some aspects ;) ...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 16
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
My point is: the Nord Piano is a simple bitimbral stage piano. Its midi is limited and absolutely not comparable to a high class/top level (if flagship is confusing as a term) 16 part timbral synth. Sure, nobody and nothing prevents you to connect the Nord Piano to the Montage 6, but I personally don't see a point in doing that. I'd rather play piano on the nord piano and play other parts on the Montage 6 instead of mirroring the performances from a 61 keyboard to a 88 one, but that's just me.
And sure, I'm not talking about legal actions here nor do I think that we need to take every single word spoken here to serious. The point is very clear: Montage has a hard to understand limitation regarding midi and this is clearly and vocal communicated on every forum out there as soon as somebody ask for a buying advice.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 17
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Well, I have lot of reasons for using the Nord as the controller:

  • By now I prefer the Montage Piano over the Nord so the Nord is only a controller by now for me (and that's totally personal taste!).
  • The Nord has a lot of limitations in terms of performance control (yes the Montage is not the only board with annoying limitations. For example I cannot have independent transpose for Piano and Synth parts).
  • In many cases I layer more sounds on top of the Piano. That would require switching the Nord and Montage together and require me to do more programming. Also I can use the Superknob for controlling the relative volumes etc.
  • I can switch Montage performances from the Ipad Songbook+, but I cannot easily switch the Nord together with the Montage sounds (I can but it requires going through some hoops).
  • Using sounds from both the Montage and the Nord requires a mixer. Or requires to go from the Nord into the Montage through the analog in. With OS 2.0 that might be a viable option, before it was working only so so because there was no global setting for the analog in. So the sound of the Nord changed sometimes with the performance selected on the Montage.
  • I can use the Montage alone or in combination with the Nord as a controller without any difference in sounds and functionality. So for band rehearsals I only take the Montage because it is less carrying and less time for setup, for gigs I sometimes use both, when space permits etc.

Apart from that, yes, I think we both agree.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 18
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hello.

From the announcements, my understanding is the version 2.0 firmware allows for loading a specific Performance on power-on. Therefore, as of this posting, there are two days to wait to realize Montage functioning identical to other keyboards with respect to the power-on ability to play your general MIDI files correctly.


To be clear OS 2.00 alow you to select a Live set slot when you power up your Montage.
You do not select a performance, you select a Live set.
When the montage is powered on the Live set you have select, just press "Performance" button to be in performance mode ;)

You need of course to select Power on Mode "Live set".

If you select Power on Mode "Performance" the Montage will power up on CFX + FM EP. performance.


About midi channel, for my using witch is more stage using, at Montage release, it disturb me a little bit to cannot select the midi channel for each part like i was doing on Motif XF.

After two month of using and clearly understanding the benefit of using Montage like this in MIDI I/O Multi control, when it's need by my Motif XF8 too, i will not come back to the midi channel input selection.

Before i was using an impulse keyboard control 61 with my XF8, 4 FC7 pedals to control by expression the layers/split on the same midi channel to increase one part when decrease one other so using sometimes two foot in the same time, editing witch one receive FC1, the other FC2, ....when i think of this now, it's that i found crazy.

Now with the Montage 7 and XF8, i'm just using one pedal to control Super Knob, each part on he's midi channel, no problem of layers/split receiving volume or other midi message on the same midi channel, i can use Super Knob, i can use one knob unlink to Super knob, i can use faders for volume ,i can use the SSS with live set changing thru foot control, i can use scene memory .... it's clearly better to my taste.

I just need to change my workflow at the start and now i have more than 100 performances, all at 8 parts maximum (to share with other users who do not have two keyboards) and all is working fine like this for me.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 19
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks for clearing up the details - pre-release information is slim so some inference is needed. Not so with the beta-testers.

Still (@Tom) you will be able to load any Performance at boot-up assuming you follow my "in the meantime" advice which included defaulting to Live Set - then, when V2.0 arrives, add the default Live Set slot value which contains your "Play GM MIDI" Performance.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 20
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