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  1. CassieDennis
  2. Sherlock Holmes
  3. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  4. Tuesday, 12 February 2019
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Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Michael,

I commened in the other thread you mentioned this, but I'll repeat here for continuity...

Another way to do it without any of the transposing hassles is set the modulator to Fixed Freq mode, tune to approximately 87 Hz (you'll need to adjust the detune a bit) then set the Pitch Key tracking to 99. This way you don't have to rememeber the sound is transposed when setting all your other key scaling, breakpoints etc.

Depending on the exact "ratio" you need is you multiply middle C pitch of approximately 261 Hz by the 'sub ratio' factor. In this case 261 x 1/3 = 87. If you wanted a ratio of 1/4, it would be 261 x 1/4 = 75.5. a ratio of 1/5 would be 261x 1/5 = 52.2 Hz. You use middle C as the reference as FM-X uses that note as the 'center' pitch when setting the Pitch Key Scaling in Fixed Freq mode. Again, you always will need to tweak the detune to get the tuning exact given the resolution of the Freq Fine parameter
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Many of the Insertion Effects Types are found repeated in the System Effects. Where you choose to place the Effect Type can make a huge difference as you move forward... arm yourself with the difference:

The reason (yes, there is a reason) I recommend applying the “Symphonic” as an Insertion Effect, in this use case, is because the Insertion Effects are apart of the instrument you are creating, while System Effects are not. Insertion Effects belong to the Part. The System Effects belong to the Performance Mixer.

You will appreciate this when you seek to use the sound you design in another Performance. When you “Merge” or “replace” a Part in a Performance your selection always brings along its Insertion Effect, but it never brings along the System Effects, Master FX, or Master EQ.


By using the “Symphonic” Type as an Insertion (all signal goes through the processor) we are using it more as a utility in constructing the sound, than we are just applying it as you would a Chorus ‘effect’, (to taste).

Just got back from vacation and had a chance yesterday evening to try “Symphonic” as an Insertion Effect.

WOW!!

It is nearly identical to Unison on my DX7II for 'Orchestral Strings' with Unison Poly set to 5...!
(Note that I have the DX7II plugged into the Montage AD Input for direct real time comparison...)

Using just 1 PART on the Montage with "Symphonic" as InsA and tweaking the settings to the following, it is closer to Unison than using the two "Pitch Change" Insert effects, removing 'most' of the wave sound, but with the added bonus of stereoization of the sound:

Dry/Wet Balance (D=W)
LFO SPEED = ~38Hz (...serious ear-candy as you mentioned above!)
LFO Depth = 42
DELAY OFFSET = ~29 (less than 30)

However, using 2 PARTs, panned L29/R29 and with the following settings below, I was able to get even better stereo separation and a closer Unison-like sound (nearly perfect), getting rid of the wave sound completely that the "Pitch Change" Insert effects could not. I also detuned the 2 PARTs +/- 1.3 :

Dry/Wet Balance (D=W)
LFO SPEED = ~38Hz (...serious ear-candy as you mentioned above!)
LFO Depth = 39
DELAY OFFSET = ~29 (less than 30)

________________

Next, I went back to the 'Voice strings' sound that I had first tried the 2 "Pitch Change" Insert effects on and oddly enough it was 'not' better/closer to the DX7II Unison Poly when using the “Symphonic” insertion effect instead, set similarly to above, even when using 2 PARTs! The "Pitch Change" Insert effects was still a bit closer to that sound on the DX7II using Unison Poly set to 5. Possibly because this sound doesn't have a pronounced wave in it like the 'Orch Strings' did..!?

I then tried setting InsA with the “Symphonic” insertion effect and InsB with the "Pitch Change" insert effect, and that worked better. I'll have to compare again to be certain, but it sounded slightly better/closer this way than using "Pitch Change" on both Insert effects. This is comparing 2 PARTs panned as per above for stereo separation.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Manny,

I don’t understand how to adjust the detune. I didn’t hear any difference in the sound through the full range of detune adjustment of the modulator. Do I just need to listen more carefully, or is there some other way to tell how to make that adjustment?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
You should probably start with "detune" on the carrier to get a feel for how much difference there is to the output pitch of detune vs. fine.

For the modulator, you should turn the level all the way up so you can cram the most amplitude into the carrier. I'm assuming your modulator is going straight into the carrier and not removed by several other modulators.

Also, set the modulator AEG so it doesn't die off right away. Keep it going "forever" in terms of AEG (the "level" tab in FM-X). This is the general area of the interface: https://www.yamahasynth.com/modx-category/manny-s-fm-xpert-4-the-envelope-s-please

You can just cram all levels to 99 (on the modulator) so you can really hear what that detune parameter is doing. AEG may be masking the modulator if AEG is set to quickly squelch your modulator level.

Since I didn't have my keyboard in the studio - I just went online and setup a 2 operator stack:

https://www.webaudiomodules.org/wamsynths/dexed

Alg 5, level for for ops 1 & 2 all the way up. All other ops all the way down. Ops 1&2 ratio freq. mode. Left op 1's EG as default (some kind of "slow" decay). Cranked all the levels of op 2's EG up so it "never" decays and always is max level. Freq setting for both Op 1&2 coarse at 1, fine at 0, detune at -7 for both (was just easy to turn the knob all the way down). Running through all detune values of op 2 (modulator) - I could hear a difference. Detune -7 for modulator - no "beats". Detune at 0 - slow "beats" ("vibrato" ). Detune at +7 - fast beats.

Same settings - but change op2 to coarse of 9. Difference between -7 and +7 detune on modulator could be heard clearly when playing highest note. -7 was more "dull" and +7 was more "brilliant".

Initially, I noticed the wave shape was set to a triangle type wave (not FM-X-ish enough). I changed it to sine and general observations didn't change.

Maybe doing something similar in FM-X would show the same thing.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Jason,

As Michael corectly mentions, you need to make sure your modulator's envelope hasn't decayed to low / to zero, so is best to set set the freq. fine and detune settings with hight Modulation l output and the envelopes wide open.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 5
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Think you got the "Michael" and "Jason" switched.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
... strike that.... reverse it ... :)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 7
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hello Manny,
What an interesting project you have here and very well done indeed! Since i have a FS1R synth and some software dx7 emulators is it possible to transcribe the piano patch for those synthesizers??
If the montage patch could be read somehow to find out al the parameters then i could do it myself...If not possible it would also be usable to print out all the operators screens. You already did about half of them...
Many thanks for your thoughts on this!
Greetings from Holland
Hans van den Tillaart
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hans,

The FS1r would be the best place to start as it has the necessary Operator Fixed Frequency mode, as well as essentially the same FIlter types as FM-X. Unfortunately, you'd need 8 of them to recreate with any usable polyphony...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hello Manny,

There are 4 voiced and 4 unvoiced operaterators in the FS1R wich can be (limited) used as voiced operators. Then there is DX7 V from Arturia wich has also different waveforms as operators etc.
If i only could get my hands on the values.... then there could be a lot of experimentation going on... I am stil trying to extract the values from the X7L- patch with the help of the datalist and a HEX-viewer but have not succeeded yet...
Thank you for al the input you could give to help out!
Greetings Hans
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 10
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