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  1. Giorgio
  2. MONTAGE
  3. Sunday, 15 January 2017
Hi,
I need to independently manage the MIDI channel of each part of the performance.
I honestly can not understand why the Yamaha engineers decided to statically assign the channel (part 1 midi channel 1, part 2 midi channel 2, ..... part 16 midi channel 16).
I have read several threads on the same topic but I never found the solution.

In a live situation it is common to use an external controller to manage the different parts of a sound track. Having the ability to independently manage the midi channel for each part of the performance in my view helps the work.

How you can solve the problem by following the new workflow that engineers have thought for Montage?

Doing so provides a firmware update that allows a management of independent MIDI channels?

Hello to all
Giorgio
Responses (59)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Expect a workflow primer - the "new way" etc. I'd be interested to see, after the first wave of that - some specifics on how your particular "live sound track" work does not fit that model.

I think if you get the right external controller (doesn't have to be a Yamaha product) you can shift the burden to the controller and output the right MIDI channel vs. requiring control over the MIDI input channels. However, this may be too simplistic of a vantage point not respecting your setup particulars.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Is the question why the engineers decided to do what they did? Or is the question how you set the Montage receive Channel?

If you are playing (physically) the Montage you can do so independently of transmitting Out via MIDI by using the Zone Master feature.
If you want to trigger the Montage from an external controller (that only transmits on one channel), you simply set the MIDI I/O mode to "Single" and select a channel 1-16.

But if you want to play the Montage as a multiple Part, multiple channel device from an external controller, then I guess what you need to learn to accept is, your external controller needs to be able to transmit on multiple MIDI channels in order to achieve what Montage does when you play its own keyboard when set to MIDI I/O = Multi. If you can get your head around that, then the Part/Channel 1, Part 2/Channel 2, Part 3/Channel 3 internal configuration makes sense (or at least may begin to make sense). Is that what you are having a problem with?

Press [UTILITY]
Touch "Settings" > "Advanced"
Set the MIDI I/O mode = "Single"
Select a channel 1-16

Many folks have a problem with this because they fail to accept the multi timbal, multi Part setup is/can be played by the Montage across multiple MIDI Channels.

If you want to take advantage of this, then your external controller should be capable of transmitting on multiple MIDI Channels. If not, you may be confused about setting MIDI channels. It still works the same match receiving Part to MIDI transmit channel.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
As a general statement - the one part per MIDI channel OR all parts to the same MIDI channel is not as flexible as competition. Take the Korg Kronos.

Out of its 16 "slots" - you can assign the MIDI receive channel to any (1-16) and also have more than one slot assigned to the same MIDI channel. The aspect where more than one "slot" can be assigned to the same channel is something that Montage cannot support unless you count assigning them all to the same MIDI channel.

There are some situations where having multiple parts with the same MIDI channel (not all the same MIDI channel) will open doors that would otherwise be unavailable in terms of external control.

It is an example of feature disparity which leaves Yamaha trailing.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I am sorry, but I fail to see the problem. I have three keyboards, all addressing the 16 parts/channels of the Montage.
Even the pads on the top-midi-keyboard for single-shot invocation or my Behringer midi-foot-pedals are able to use the Montage.

From a studio perspective you can dub any channel.
From a live-player perspective: I only have two five-finger hands and one foot (the other I use for standing and balancing).

Sequencing and arpeggio's can be done, but I consider that pressing a "play-button". They use to have these on CD-players as well.
If one uses pre-programmed interaction you might just as well start your DAW for playback.
I know, creating music has become more and more producing, rather than playing.
However, the Montage is truly a great performing machine, and my prior dream as a keyboard player coming true.

Otherwise one might consider other tools like polyphonic sequencing or 16-channel sampling or all-in-one.

Please let a keyboard be a keyboard. If you want to fool the audience just put a robot on stage.

Having that said, inconsistently I wish there would become a one-man-band style-backing-module available like the BK7M but then specifically designed for the montage. I would prefer that over a new model of the Tyros. And keyboard players are irreplaceable, but some of the other band-members can be substituted :D
Attachments (1)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Right, there really is no problem. It simply that it does not work the way some people expect. The Montage was clearly designed to be a player's instrument, in my opinion. The attention to both user programmability and to use control over nuance and music gesture is profound. Perhaps not appreciated by everyone based on the comments above. But not everyone can appreciate the design approach, that will always be true no matter what.

To me its about playing the role in a band. As the keyboardist in a band you maybe asked to cover everything from traditional keyboard sounds to brass section, strings to woodwind, guitar parts, sometimes you need to cover being the bass.... synth, acoustic, electric, fretless... it varies from gig to gig.

With whatever you are tasked with being, you should be able to convincingly fulfill that role with a Montage. Access to more than just the standard articulations is very cool. Drop-offs, pitch rips, sforzando, swells, and dynamic shakes all in one horn section sound is not only compelling to play but as a keyboard player, it's fun to be the horn section!

Some people get this right away, others will play it and approach it as if it were just a 'piano', just a keyboard - meaning, "motion control" to them is still just some kind of marketing hype, and to them and advantage gained by the increase in available Elements in a single instrument program is not a good trade-off. And in some situations, I'm totally sure that's true!!!

Their opinion is, of course, allowed. I doubt adding the ability to manually set the MIDI channel would improve anything even in their eyes. Some of what is on tap with the multi Part, single instrument Montage paradigm (where the single sound you are performing can morph into a whole set of different articulations and expressions as you play), this is certainly different from any other synth that I know of, so the comment that it is some how "trailing" is simply completely misguided, in my view. Yet, I know some folks who would never care about any of this, you can't argue with it, just hear and understand.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 5
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The "trailing" comment was limited to MIDI channel input configuration vs competition. Supported by example for that narrow item. Not a comment about Montage as a whole. Feature wise, you win some and lose some.

My usage is not impacted by this behavior. So I am fine with the implementation. There are limits to everything. If operating far from the edge, a slightly shorter plank is insignificant.

Still interested in seeing (with more detail) if the OP really is over that edge or if there is a way to meet the needs with the existing system.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thank you all for your considerations.

I purchased the Montage 7 December claiming an important economic budget (€ 3.300 price in Italy).
I am very happy with the keyboard and the potential that offers.
I find it very effective management Super Knob, Motion Sequences, AWM2 technology and FM-X that allow you to create different sounds and very modern. It is very clear that the Yamaha engineers have focused a great deal on these issues that characterize the Montage and make it very contemporary.
The question I posed is very clear and simply about the independent management of the midi channels of the 16 parts that make up each performance. That's all.

Joan has perfectly translated my thinking. The issue concerns only the possibility of managing the midi channel of the parties independently. He did not want to face arguments Montage general.
It is just to see if Yamaha deems appropriate to resolve the request meeting the needs of its customers.

Thanks so much
Giorgio
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 7
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I think that the Montage can probably cover most bases in a band. However a lot of keys players use multiple brands and keyboards for various reasons. Firstly theres the keybed, you normally want a weighted board for piano, and semi weighted for synth, organ etc etc. Secondly you want a backup if something goes wrong with one of the keyboards. Thirdly, different brands have different sounds, some suited to some genres, some to others.

If both keyboards had the flexibility of setting midi channels for parts then filtering out send and receives of the various parameters it makes setting up songs etc a lot quicker, you can set 4 parts to the same midi part if you wish, which is very handy for quick stacking/splits etc.

I think this is a common view of it among the keyboard community.

Scott
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
What's new and different about Montage is that instead of putting several sounds on the same MIDI Channel, the Montage transmits on several MIDI Channels simultaneously. For years now to layer four sounds, you placed them on the same MIDI Channel, Montage to address the four Part layer transmits on four separate channels. The difference is easy enough to understand when put simply. But it is not quite the same thing.

The advantage is not always immediately seen, but seems to be immediately felt. Until the spec expands to include more realtime performing control over articulation and nuance, Montage uses the full power of a channel to accomplish certain tasks. Each Montage Part interprets the stream of control messages in its own way... it is the advanced "scaling" of the response to controller movements that makes it totally unique.... playing things like the Orchestral Brass Swells is one example, allowing the performer continuous control over the timbre change of the horns through the Motion Control. Instead of cc007 making all layered Part jump to the same value, each Part is given its own programmed response curve directly assigned to its Part Volume, so that the position of your control (Super Knob) fades each in and out at the appropriate point to morph the timbre through four or five levels of timbre change.

It's not that Yamaha suddenly forgot how MIDI works, quite the contrary, we're expanding how it works. More Elements available means more nuance, more expression, more articulations available in real time. For the live performer this, we feel is critical. The new Controller matrix on Montage is not about stacking items on the same channel. You can transmit to multiple Parts, but you do so by transmitting on multiple channels. It's that simple... that complex.

Realtime control over eight Arpeggiators is best handled on separate channels, as when drums are one of your layered sounds you want it to interpret your incoming messages quite differently than the piano and pad sound. When you press the [AUDITION] button on Montage you are hearing what a musician can do with the technology "live"... you are not hearing overdubs - what you're hearing is real time - someone pressed record and played Montage. When you hear a Performance audition phrase, whether 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8 Parts, you are listening to what can be done live on the keys.

It's different, to be sure. Take your time... but most of all keep your ears open. Some will get it right away, others it will take time. It's about control, realtime control.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I understand what you are saying. I still think that having another option of setting midi channels for the parts aswell as the current modes would be much appreciated by the community.

I understand you loose some control etc but in some situations it might be more important to stack a sound that doesnt need all the controller options, just a fat sound for example.

I'm looking forward to receiving my Montage 6 in the coming weeks and appreciate the support you've always given the Yamaha community Phil, thats one huge advantage the brand has is owners feel they can get pretty hasty answers to technical questions. I'll no doubt have a few when trying to learn the instrument.

Thanks

Scott
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I spent most of today researching the Montage in great detail because I've been doing the all software thing for awhile and would like to go back to a simpler hardware setup. I was 99% sold on the idea of a Montage until I stumbled on this topic.

My desired setup is quite simple. I have an 88 key studio logic controller that I love, so I have no desire to spend the money on a Montage 8. I also want a good synth action, and I want a single sound source, so a Montage 6 sounded like the right choice. Back when I had a Kronos 61, this setup was easy. 3 part combi (performance) with piano and strings on midi channel 2 (assigned to the 88 controller) and a lead sound on channel 1 (the Kronos).

I sold the Kronos because I was never happy with its DAW integration, and I always had a lot of problems with USB audio in general. And those issues are what got me looking at the Montage because I read great things about the audio/DAW features. But now I guess I'll have to re-evaluate my plan because from what I'm getting from this thread is that it isn't possible to setup the simple system I mentioned above? That is such a common useful feature. I just can't understand how in the world that was intentionally left out. And none of the "Learn the Montage Way" nonsense comes close to covering up such a lame decision.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 11
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The portion you cannot do is assign two PARTs to the same MIDI channel while having another/other PART(s) assigned to some different MIDI channel.

The Kronos (among others) can handle this configuration and Montage cannot. Although I do not need this configuration (my goals do not include external hardware controllers) - I do wish there was some more parity in MIDI configuration options.

That's not to say that the overall goal cannot be accomplished - I'm not prepared at the moment to offer a work-around (if even possible without throwing more hardware/software at the problem) to the lack of MIDI input channel configurations.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 12
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I totally agree with you on this Greg! i would really love to have that option even if it disables the superknob for that performance or maybe let us have parts 9-16 have assignable midi channels and 1-8 can still use the superknob...I would really rather not have to buy some heavy very expensive controller like the RD-2000 just to be able to have the versatility i need for certain gigs which have many layers and splits...i own the Montage 6 and would like to just go out with the Montage 6 and a lightweight piano like a Yamaha P115 or Roland PF 30 . I like to have the options of the different weighted and non weighted actions for different parts and sometime will need say 2 or 3 splits up top on the Montage 6 and a couple of layers and splits on the weighted keyboard...This has been my biggest disappointment with the Montage..I love the sound and so many of the other things it does bring to the table please give us some way to do this for those of us with a 2 keyboard live setup that don't want to have to buy a very expensive heavy controller to do so.!! thanks
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 13
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
+1

Nord Piano 2 + Montage. The Nord Piano sends on one channel only. I can do the above but only with the addition of a little MIDI controller. Would love to not use it when I use the Nord Piano as the second controller to the Montage. I think and hope that since so many people complain about it, the message is heard by the Yamaha engineers...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 14
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
So why can we not have a 3rd Midi Mode (Midi+) for setting Midi Receive Channels for Parts, this could/would complement the current other two Midi Modes (Single and Mulit) this is still very much needed by many, Unfortunately what we still have here with Montage is a garden wall built around the current Midi restrictive design when trying to use Montage and Midi in the traditional sense with other keyboards, Yamaha seems fixed in this debate when trying to understand the argument, if this new 3rd option could be introduced and even if this restrict the ethos of montage in some way it would still allow some flexibly in certain situations in a traditional sense with a complex midi keyboard rig having a 3rd Midi Mode (Midi+) which has been missing from Montage as part of the stardard we have always known which many have called for..this includes a famous name in a recent interview while talking about his on-stage keyboard rig when complimenting the Montage, Don't get me wrong Montage is still a fantastic keyboard but there is room for further improvement, Let's hope the engineers at Yamaha consider this, So to conclude...this would be a 3rd options not a fixed position to compliment the other two Midi Modes for Montage
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 15
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I completely agree with Stefan. I have a Montage 7. Really satisfied with sounds, controller etc., but highly disappointed with this strange MIDI structure. I am also rather tired of many and many attempt to justify such decision, that, indeed, seems somehow derived by technical design constraints. It is, in matter of fact, a step back with respect to previous Motifs and other synths/workstations on the market. I hope engineers will find a technical solution to this lack in future firmware update. Please stop to try to convince me I'm not understanding the "philosophy" of the machine.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 16
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
+1

Waiting for two years now for that 3rd option. So again, Yamaha, please.....!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 17
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Plugged in the Montage last night and unfortunately, there is no workaround which enables the configuration where an external controller with one MIDI channel can control multiple PARTs while the local keyboard can control a different set of PARTs.

If there was a way to keep MIDI mode = Multi while making select PART(s) not participate (like block external MIDI altogether or keep select PARTs on their PART# channel instead of the assigned single channel) then this would work - but neither of these options exist.

There are currently the following options to realize your goal of using an external MIDI controller for some PARTs while using the local keyboard to control different PARTs:

1) Swap out the 88 key weighted MIDI controller with another one that can transmit multiple MIDI channels (zones). These can get pricey because there are few MIDI-only controllers that meet these requirements.

2) Place non-PC dedicated hardware between that can take a single MIDI channel and route that channel out to multiple channels.

http://www.ees-musik.de/html_gb/produkte_procon_gb.html
This device "multiplies" a single channel to up to 16 other channels:
http://www.ees-musik.de/html_gb/produkte_mulkan_gb.html

There are other devices out there.

3) Place a PC between and use a plugin or other software to route ("multiply" ) the MIDI channel.

http://www.midikarval.net/MidiMapper.html
http://www.bome.com

or MIDI pipes or ...

There are also free solutions out there for both plugins and stand-alone.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 18
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Paolo wrote:

I completely agree with Stefan. I have a Montage 7. Really satisfied with sounds, controller etc., but highly disappointed with this strange MIDI structure. I am also rather tired of many and many attempt to justify such decision, that, indeed, seems somehow derived by technical design constraints. It is, in matter of fact, a step back with respect to previous Motifs and other synths/workstations on the market. I hope engineers will find a technical solution to this lack in future firmware update. Please stop to try to convince me I'm not understanding the "philosophy" of the machine.
+1
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 19
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Can't login to this forum via Chrome and Windows 10 (overlay appears with no login form), so there's that.

I arrive to this forum completely disappointed.

Put simply, Yamaha's decision to hardcode the MIDI receive channel for each part makes it impossible to create a split on an external controller.
This is a VERY BIG DEAL.
The Kronos achieves this and I falsely assumed Yamaha would as well.

I use a 2 keyboard setup with a Roland A88 as my primary keybed (the lightest, best weighted controller out there) and the Montage as the brains of the operation.

I want to do the vast majority of my playing from the A88 - thus I have the need to program splits for it.
I NEED to control multiple Montage parts from the A88 (transmitting on MIDI channel 2), but with this stunning revelation, I CAN'T.

I'm sort of in disbelief, actually.

Yamaha, if you're listening: a critical feature is missing from the MIDI implementation of this otherwise stunning keyboard and it represents such a problem for me as to possibly have to turn around and SELL it and go back to my Kronos.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 20
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