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  1. Catherine
  2. Sherlock Holmes
  3. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  4. Monday, 30 August 2021
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Responses (18)
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Great info as always.

I put this on IdeaScale as well: I do think it would be interesting to see the manufacturers push the concept of the Mixer + Audio Interface further.

A mixer is in many situations the better way to interface with studio equipment, but most current mixers are made first and foremost with live events in mind.

A different proportion of mics vs stereo connections, USB multitrack instead of just the Stereo mix, Aux outputs or a secondary output bus even for smaller 6-8 channel mixers would make for an excellent audio interface.
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The Behringer UMC404HD is an example of this hybrid mixer+audio interface. It's not as knob-rich as a typical mixer (no EQ or pan on the hardware surface) but otherwise has all of the basic features while still providing all 4 channels simultaneous for multi-track recording.

I am sure there are other examples of the same class of product out there in the wild. The Steinberg UR242 is not as knob/connector feature rich - but provides 4 channel recording (matching this particular feature bullet of the UMC404HD). Steinberg UR44 offers more channels. That's sticking to the lower price class. There's high-end stuff of course. However, these seem to sacrifice knobs and elect to use a more menu-ed approach for adjusting channels.

I do see the point, however. Audio interfaces that are "mixers" or USB mixers that are better audio interfaces does seem to be an opportunity for growth.
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I am sure there are other examples of the same class of product out there in the wild. The Steinberg UR242 is not as knob/connector feature rich - but provides 4 channel recording (matching this particular feature bullet of the UMC404HD). Steinberg UR44 offers more channels. That's sticking to the lower price class. There's high-end stuff of course. However, these seem to sacrifice knobs and elect to use a more menu-ed approach for adjusting channels.

There are some interesting advantages for "mixers with USB", as opposed to audio interfaces, especially for people that are using hardware synths.

First and most obvious: it works stand alone. No need to switch cables or anything, and no need to start your computer if you just want to play your synth or program it stand-alone.

Second: it allows for some useful routing (again, even stand alone).
I use an Allen & Heath ZEDi 10 USB mixer as my only audio interface (apart from my MODX, but that's only when I record the MODX).
My studio monitors are connected to the mixer stereo output, and the MODX audio outs are going into one of the Stereo Ins in the mixer.
Both the mixer and the MODX are connected to the computer with their own USB cable.
No matter which one I use as an audio interface, the sound will go through the mixer so I don't need to switch any speaker cables.
It's a fixed setup and I can simply choose in Nuendo which one I'm going to use as the audio interface.

The ZEDi 10 has an AUX output (well, it has 2 actually). So suddenly, a problem that a lot of people seem confused about around here (how do I use my audio interface that drives my condenser mic AND my Montage/MODX audio interface at the same time?) is elegantly solved: the mic goes into the mixer, which provides the 48V Phantom Power. I then send it to the AUX out (and mute it in the main mix).
I connect the AUX out of the mixer to the A/D mono input of the MODX and done!
Again, no need to switch any cables, I can decide where the mic signal goes by turning the AUX or Level knobs on the mixer.
And again, the setup with either the ZEDi or the MODX selected as an audio interface, and also stand-alone.

I do see the point, however. Audio interfaces that are "mixers" or USB mixers that are better audio interfaces does seem to be an opportunity for growth.

I would say the latter, rather. All audio interfaces are mixers, in a way, but they're not physical mixers, and are not standalone.
The new Mackie Onyx series is interesting, as it offers complete multitrack, so they're full featured audio interfaces with 8/12/16 ins.

The ZEDi 10 that I have is not bad either, as it has 4in-4out USB channels, so it does offer some selective multitracking capabilities (which I think are unique in the 200EUR price range).
I like a lot the Yamaha mixer range and I suspect the signal quality might be a bit better than in the ZEDi (I'll find out soon as I just ordered an AG06 to use as an audio interface for my Surface Pro), but the fact that they can only output the full mix via USB (only 2out-2in channels) is a limitation.
There's quite some space for innovation here, Yamaha!
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Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
There's quite some space for innovation here, Yamaha!
Yamaha delved very deeply into the ‘keyboard player oriented home studio audio interface/digital mixer market’ — so deeply, I could write a book!

— 28in/24out, 24-bit with 32-bit internal processing, switchable +48V Phantom Power, 4-Band EQ per channel, Dynamics processing per channel, balanced inputs, (1) Hi-Z input (guitar/bass)…28 ch Digital Mixing (44.1, 48 kHz)/18 ch Digital Mixing (88.2, 96 kHz), etc. All in an affordable, compact desktop unit, computer audio interface/mixer compatible…

Oh, but that was 18 years ago. Seriously, the thing I love the most about working at Yamaha is they are usually willing to be (way) out on the cutting edge before others even start thinking about things like doing really high-end recording in your bedroom.

You don’t really need to nudge Yamaha… (lol) because more than likely they’ve been there, done that, and have the t-shirts. The main difficulty with that first round of sophisticated home studio mixer/audio interface units proved it to be just a bit over the collective heads of the target market (keyboard players w/home studios). Maintaining working displays in local music stores was a major challenge. You need them to keep a computer connected (it was a huge challenge).

The mixer was the 01x Digital Mixing Studio (mLAN), the synth (Motif ES and XS) connected its 16 digital outputs directly to the mixer (FW), there were 8 TRS Ins for your band mates, the mixer was expandable in sets of 8 high quality channels which you could ‘hotwire’ into a session, if/when necessary. The Digital Patchbay allowed you to connect your gear for MIDI and Audio; you could move individual synth sounds to be processed before recording. (Way ahead of its time… and while not perfect (nothing ever is), the sound quality was absolutely stunning…) unbelievably configurable for simple recording to Surround-sound setups… see examples attached screenshots of the Digital Patchbay! Shout out to all the mLANer pioneers out there!

What the result of all of this was - more sophisticated Effect processing being built into the keyboard synth itself. Each Part in the MONTAGE for example, has its own 5-bands of EQ, has its own two block Insertion Effects, making boutique-level processing available on all 16+1 Parts… so much of what you went out of the synth to process has been built into the synth engine. The company keeps a close eye on just how much interest there is in the home recording area, trust me. The digital mixer is built-into the MONTAGE/MODX.
We stay aware of just how *challenged* musicians (particularly keyboard players) are with recording and sophisticated routing.

When I compare explaining how to route a MONTAGE snare drum to an individual record out, to the explanation back in mLAN days, I truly think putting the processors in the Keyboard is a lot more palatable for the keyboard player (“I'm a musician, not a technician”—rant you see here every now and again). Plus they are much more easily transportable when you gig

What killed mLAN was the computer companies not buying into the concept of using the computer to configure the system, and for recording at home, … but the original networking mLAN concept allowed you to disconnect from the computer and go gig… you only needed to create a daisy-chain FW connection, your configuration would re-establish without the computer (ideal for gigging - our target customer recorded at home and played gigs in the pubs). That Part of the ‘leave the computer home’ didn’t sit well with the computer companies! (To put it mildly).

If there is a significant increase in the potential market size for this type of thing, I think you can rest assured Yamaha will be all over that, as we’ve really been there and tested the concepts (t-shirt still fits!). And we certainly have the technology.

The AG06/AG03 when first introduced six years ago, were head scratchers to most of our music store retailers… but with everybody and their cousin online in front of a camera doing their own VLOG’ing and Podcasting, the AG06/AG03 started selling faster than anyone could have possibly imagined. Perhaps the one bright light in all of this stay-at-home pandemic thing, is the realization of the market that the audio stuff that comes in your basic computer, sucks! Haha.

It takes just a modest investment to improve on what you’re given with even an expensive computer. (My pet peeve: audio is always an afterthought: the Phone, the SmartPhone is a far, far, better camera, than it is an audio device - which used to be its primary function. Visuals get a 10, Audio gets a 3) take a look at your phone… it probably has a multiple lens high definition camera, but a speaker that must cost as much as a stick of bubblegum.

(AG03/AG06 — Right features, just slightly ahead of its time… good luck getting one… demand has been off-the-charts for the last year and a half).
I lose sleep over where this all would be if Yamaha had been successful in developing a truly successful Music Computer (one that was built ground up for music! Every time I use an adapter, I cringe... lol

BTW - principally designed as a ‘live’ mixer… the Yamaha TF-series of digital consoles can record 34 audio channels direct to your DAW via USB while you gig!
It can do your gig, capture complete audio stems from each channel direct to your DAW (Cubase). Again, this works for a lot of musicians who are not (heavy) technicians… A single USB cable to the laptop captures your entire gig. Take the laptop and mix it all later in Cubase.
Again, difficult concept to show in your local retail store, unless the retailer is forward thinking enough to combine “live” pro sound with the musicians interested in recording… usually at opposite ends of the building…
Attachments (3)
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  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
(AG03/AG06 — Right features, just slightly ahead of its time… good luck getting one… demand has been off-the-charts for the last year and a half).

Well, believe it or not, my AG06 just arrived (like 2 hours ago) from Thomann Germany (and indeed it's first place seller in their analog mixer category).
I haven't installed it yet, but I have to say the build quality is fantastic, way above what you'd expect from an 150EUR product...

Oh, but that was 18 years ago. Seriously, the thing I love the most about working at Yamaha is they are usually willing to be (way) out on the cutting edge before others even start thinking about things like doing really high-end recording in your bedroom.

Amazing story and context, Bad Mister! Thanks for that.

Yes, it was ahead of its time. Meanwhile, its time has come, and it's now!

I know about the digital mixer that's in my MODX6, but my point above was different: an external mixer with an audio interface it's a great tool in the studio for concentrating all audio outputs (to the studio monitors for example) without the need to switch cables all the time when you need to switch from the MODX as an interface to the one you use to record the guitars or voice.
And a mixer with AUX outputs comes with the added bonus of being an pre-amp / DI box for the condenser mic that everybody wants to connect to the MODX/Montage.
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I thought the request was for greater than 2 track simultaneous recording and less than 10. The AG06 as a 2-track USB digital output isn't fitting that request. And a 32ch mixer is well above the class of mixer requested.

Any offerings around 8 channel (or slightly fewer) simultaneous track recording that offer some level of mixing capabilities and other features mentioned as requests?
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I thought the request was for greater than 2 track simultaneous recording and less than 10. The AG06 as a 2-track USB digital output isn't fitting that request. And a 32ch mixer is well above the class of mixer requested.

Any offerings around 8 channel (or slightly fewer) simultaneous track recording that offer some level of mixing capabilities and other features mentioned as requests?

From Yamaha, at this moment, I don't know of any. But if they'd offer one, I'd be the first in line.
Something in the form factor of the AG06 but with 6 channels out and 4 returns and an AUX out would be a killer audio interface / mixer for a bedroom producer.
If it's 8 channels instead of 6, even better.

Current offerings (that I know of) in a price range for a bedroom producer :) are Mackie Onyx 8 or 12 (the new series) and the Zoom Live Track L8.
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Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
USB Multi Channel audio is still a rather new thing. It’s always been fast enough but lacked the bandwidth — this is why FW was used back at the turn of this century for 16-bus audio in synthesizers in 2003. The Yamaha MOX (2011) was our first synth with dual stereo (4) USB Outs, and the TF-series mixing consoles (2015) were the first truly multi-channel USB mixer and its 34 channel (32 direct USB outs plus the Main Stereo USB L/R). And of course, now MONTAGE with its 32-USB bus outputs.

When it comes to multiple USB bus outputs, you’d have to convince someone that, more than two, less than ten, around 8 or slightly less, is a sellable item. Good luck. I’m rooting for you. The request for a live mixer capable of documenting a full live performance direct to a DAW, has a market demand. The live engineer can concentrate on the gig and the sound in the venue… you simply tap into each channel and document it direct to the laptop. Live engineers need do nothing but tap the spacebar to run the recorder. The number channels on such things is driven by the “live sound” requirements (more so than the recording requirements). There are several 2, 4 and 8 Channel interfaces (which to meet customer price expectations rely on software ‘mixing’…)

Don’t confuse the request with a discussion of what exists… and why. I just wanted to add perspective from the manufacturer side about where and possibly why you don’t see companies rushing to feed the 6-8 USB Bus output full mixer/audio interface “market”. This may change driven by the home podcast market — as more creative people draw focus to home audio.

One thing I’ve learned about technology (and requests) — anyone can have needs and therefore make a request, but the technology only becomes a product when it can service a wide array of users in accomplishing a goal.
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Don’t confuse the request with a discussion of what exists… and why. I just wanted to add perspective from the manufacturer side about where and possibly why you don’t see companies rushing to feed the 6-8 USB Bus output full mixer/audio interface “market”.

Well, at least one major player (Mackie) is there (but got there only recently).
I am, too, very interested to see how the market reacts.

I hope I'm not the only one that is beginning to realise that an USB mixer is a much better solution for a lot of tasks than an audio interface.

You (Yamaha) had the perfect concept with the AG06, completely blurring the line: is it a mixer with USB or is it an audio interface with hardware controls? Who knows, but it's damn convenient when compared with a "normal" audio interface in the same price range.

That concept, which you applied to the entry level price segment, should carry on to the prosumer one, IMO.
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  3. # 9
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The Onyx 8 allows for each of the analog inputs to be individually recorded via MIDI pre-fader (8 USB sends). Level adjustments made live during recording do not "print" onto the USB recording so these level adjustments can be done post-recording. The 8ch is the smallest available - so the line scales up from there.

It also has 4 USB receives. The use case is a stereo pair coming from the DAW (for mixing live with DAW output) and one coming from your computer's main system sound output for youtube and all that kind of stuff. The difference in the two receives is the treatment of routing flexibility on the mixer.
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Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
In the discussion of audio interface versus mixer, just because an audio interface does not have the physical front panel interface you see on a mixing desk, doesn’t mean it’s not available (do your research) — many of the small audio interface boxes feature high quality EQs, Effects and Reverb, in hardware, that you access with a graphic utility that runs inside your DAW. Just because an audio interface is a small box, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have the equivalent or even more functionality than a physical mixing desk. A small format mixer might have effects but with limited editing, while the small audio interface in the box might have deeply editable effect processing using a graphic interface.

Each purchaser needs to evaluate the offerings based on their own particular situation. Purchasing the wrong thing is easy to do, but so is getting it right, or it can be. Take your time, ask questions… often your local music retailer is a great resource because they have been through this with more than a few customers. Take advantage of their experience with area.

Having an 8, 10 or 12 channel mixer when it is just you, might look cool… but beyond keeping lots of gear plugged in at once, there is little benefit. If that appeals to you, do it. But understand, that you have other options.
Yes, Logistics is important. If it’s going to be painful to crawl behind gear to make connections then look for solutions that accommodate your situation.

If you only have a small amount of room, you have other .options.
Recording to computer is one level.
Recording to USB stick or SD card is another level.
Multi-tracking is not for everyone.
If recording everything to a stereo mix without taking separate audio outputs and then remixing down, works for you, do it
If taking every possible thing and separating it, processing it, etc., etc., works for you, do it.

At the end of the day, when you have your final product, unless you tell them, no one will know how you did it!
So have fun doing it, that’s the key!

When it comes to playing Keyboards Live:
I am a huge proponent of hearing yourself on the gig. I know I love playing when I can hear, and I hate it when I struggle to hear. So I choose to hear (lol). If my monitoring system has the right amount of the band and me (to my liking) I enjoy playing, and I can perform better. This is not rocket science. Performing in situations where front of house is handled (you know, pro gigs), your personal rig on stage should be geared toward making it comfortable to perform. Here the usefulness of that small format mixer is essential. It functions so I can feed my own (local) stage rig, and I can send TRS to front of house! Essential. (This is why many of the MG Yamaha mixers come in versions. X in the mixer model name indicates Effects, U in the model name indicates USB record function. XU has both…no letters means without Effects or USB.
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  3. # 11
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It also has 4 USB receives. The use case is a stereo pair coming from the DAW (for mixing live with DAW output) and one coming from your computer's main system sound output for youtube and all that kind of stuff. The difference in the two receives is the treatment of routing flexibility on the mixer.

That's exactly how I use the 4 returns in my Allen & Heath ZEDi10.

Careful though, those 4 returns DO consume actual mixer channels. So the ZEDi10 has only 6 actual usable cable connections when I use the 4 channels from the computer.
I suspect it's the same with the Onyx, so for someone who would want to connect 3 stereo keyboards for example (and a mic or a guitar) and use all the 4 USB channels, the Onyx12 would be probably required.
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  3. # 12
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Just because an audio interface is a small box, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have the equivalent or even more functionality than a physical mixing desk.

Well, it does. First, it doesn't have physical controls, which is ergonomically a huge feature.
Second, it won't work standalone. You need to power up the computer to hear yourself (or you need to start fiddling with cables)
A small format mixer might have effects but with limited editing, while the small audio interface in the box might have deeply editable effect processing using a graphic interface.

Yes, but the point of the discussion that I started was to underline the advantages of the USB mixer in the context of the studio, not to bash the audio interface.
It's pretty clear to me, by watching threads on this very forum, that a lot of people buy audio interfaces and complicate their life applying them to problems that would be so much easily solved with a small mixer.

Having an 8, 10 or 12 channel mixer when it is just you, might look cool… but beyond keeping lots of gear plugged in at once, there is little benefit.

I disagree, strongly.
First, there is the standalone argument. Then, the ergonomics one (see above. Yes, I'm repeating myself).
Why keeping a lot of gear plugged in at once is NOT a HUGE benefit?
And what does "a lot of gear" mean? I'm not even a "bedroom producer", yet still: I have a mic, a MODX, my computer workstation.
I'm thinking of getting a Reface CS and sometimes I want to also connect my laptop to my monitors.

A small 10 channels mixer solves all this very elegantly, allows me to set the levels of each device using real world knobs instead of fiddling with the mouse on software control panels and can be used just as well with the computer shut down.

Yamaha had the right approach with the AG06. I would really love to see an AG10 or AG12, that goes the same route of blurring the line between interface and mixer and focuses on studio usage, as opposed to the MG line that are great live mixers with an USB interface ontop.
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Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I read your post, please actually read mine. You missed the barn Dragos. You are allowed to disagree (after all if it’s not right for you, disagree, my point is the market is bigger than just you… and other options exist. Probably for good reasons!!)
My point is I can show you an ergonomic mixer that is far less powerful than an audio interface box, and vice versa. My point is some folks money is an object, for other folks saving space is an object, for some folks money is not an object, and for still others saving space is not an object… so do your research. There are tons of videos telling people audio interfaces are somehow (automatically) less powerful or less flexible than a mixer, I’m just saying do your research, buy what works for you.

Obviously if you’re gigging, the mixer format is appealing — it’s all right there, hands-on. And since the thread is “Amplifying Keyboards” on-stage is a main focus.
Obvious if your home recording, the audio interface box was designed for this purpose… and there are some (mind you) that are simply awesome. (For wherever you want to use them) recording through those Steinberg interfaces with the Rupert Neve Transformers (wow)!

Small format Mixers from Yamaha
AG-line built for the home studio (3 ch, 6ch) podcasting is a focus
MG-line built for the gigging musician (6ch, 10ch, 12ch, 20ch… ) rough/tumble stage work.
Both offer USB recording to DAW, but the design concepts are quite different
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I read your post, please actually read mine. You missed the barn Dragos. You are allowed to disagree (after all if it’s not right for you, disagree, my point is the market is bigger than just you… and other options exist. Probably for good reasons!!)

And where did I imply the opposite of that?
Bad Mister, I am not arguing with you. I am debating you, maybe. I do read your posts, and reply to them. TBH, I am not sure at this point that the reverse is true.
Pointing out the advantages of mixers for SOME workflows and pointing out the usefulness of the mixer in the STUDIO context for SOME workflows doesn't make me the enemy of the audio interface. Please, don't imply things I did not say.
My point is I can show you an ergonomic mixer that is far less powerful than an audio interface box, and vice versa. My point is some folks money is an object, for other folks saving space is an object, for some folks money is not an object, and for still others saving space is not an object… so do your research.

It was research which revealed to me that an USB mixer would be a MUCH better solution for my setup than an audio interface, which was my initial intention.
Obvious if your home recording, the audio interface box was designed for this purpose… and there are some (mind you) that are simply awesome. (For wherever you want to use them) recording through those Steinberg interfaces with the Rupert Neve Transformers (wow)!

Well, YES, if you are home recording!
What if YOU ARE NOT? which is the case with lots of people (including me).
What if your primary intent is not recording a guitar and your voice into a DAW, so the Rupert Neve transformers mean exactly nothing for one's purpose, since they'll be never used?
What if you are someone composing scores using a DAW and software and hardware synths and you need flexible interfacing with those? I increasingly see this mentioned in various audio forums. Musicians who don't need recording and "legendary" preamps and all that, just good options for connecting studio monitors and synths.
Small format Mixers from Yamaha
AG-line built for the home studio (3 ch, 6ch) podcasting is a focus
MG-line built for the gigging musician (6ch, 10ch, 12ch, 20ch… ) rough/tumble stage work.
Both offer USB recording to DAW, but the design concepts are quite different

So what's missing in the middle: the USB mixer that's a step up from the AG06 and is dedicated to the musician (not podcaster).
Just as the AG06 is a better, for some, solution to the problems solved by an UR22C, an AG10 would be similar for the UR44C.

In the end, Bad Mister, I' trying hard to get what this is argument is about.

I replied to this thread pointing out that USB mixers could be a great solution in the studio and shouldn't be overlooked in a blind pursuit for an audio interface and that more integrated solutions (USB mixers with more audio interface features, basically) would make for great products.

If your reply to this is: no, they wouldn't, well, we can easily stop here cause I can't see how that could be the case so we'll be disagreeing forever.
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Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Well, it does. First, [...]
Second, it won't work standalone. You need to power up the computer to hear yourself (or you need to start fiddling with cables)


Depends. The UMC404HD I use requires no computer for direct monitoring.

Similar to how there are products that cross-over from the mixer side (like the Mackie) - there are audio interfaces that cross-over and offer "atypical" features vs. other competitive audio interface products.
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  3. # 16
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Similar to how there are products that cross-over from the mixer side (like the Mackie) - there are audio interfaces that cross-over and offer "atypical" features vs. other competitive audio interface products.

Which is great and my main point actually... crossover is good, and excellent products might come out by taking the features of two already established type of products and combining them.
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@Jason : just found out that a high end interface like the RME Fireface UCX II can work stand-alone. Not only that, but it can be controlled via MIDI using the Mackie protocol so in theory one could control it directly from the Montage / MODX and use it as a small, high quality (and expensive) digital mixer!

Documented here, from page 50 onwards:
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/fface_ucx2_e.pdf
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