YamahaSynth.com Forums

This is the place to talk about all things related to Yamaha Synthesizers!
  1. Jack
  2. MONTAGE
  3. Sunday, 04 November 2018
I opened a forum with "delays when changing the voice on Montage"but all replies were wrote the paragraphs .but it is about "latency when changing voice"
I need the simple answer .
..........................................
Yamaha advertised the montage is better for live performance .
But it is not that effective like Roland G6, DX7 and korg kronos.
very simple question ..
can anyone share me a video changing the voices without latency ???
what is the point of having "SSS" in search mode?if we can't use "sss" in live set.
feels like 5 - 10ms for changing voice.
Yamaha montage is useful for the keyboardist who use single voice or using multi keyboards on live performance.But what is the point of having touch screen and voice set with latency?
Why should we use montage for recording purpose when we have nice vst samples?
It is not working as Yamaha advertised for live performances.

but I'm still using Korg triton is very best than yamaha montage for live performances .wasting money for Yamaha montage.

I have updated the latest software OS2.5

can anyone write with proof, if you can use montage without latency while changing voices.
Responses (17)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Anyway, Yamaha Montage is a better synth for me and I'm very happy.
Many thanks
  1. one week ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Yas Mr. Janson exactly !

I only need 8 parts, but that does not matter.
I tried to expect only a part-drum sound (midi I / O multi-mode not single) from the montage with vArranger and Korg PA4, but from Yamaha comes the delay (latency) of Style1 to Style2.3 (if .) Accompaniment games).
This is not possible without delay
  1. one week ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Answering a previous question I posed: vArranger apparently sends one-by-one PART MSB/LSB/PC change messages for each style on the downbeat of "1" for each song.
  1. one week ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I understand now. yes its a limitation of the Montage as each performance has to load first which takes time. I wonder if you can instead use all 16 parts of a performance and set it up in such a way that you access for example 4 parts then another 4 parts and so forth? Maybe you only need 2 parts for each sound or something.
  1. one week ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thank you very much Chris, Thank you very much Jason that they were trying to help me !
  1. one week ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 5
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
@M

Either dump the MIDI message that vArranger2 is sending during a style change or have the software developer supply you with the dump. I see the vArranger forum is asking about SysEx. Not a likely part of the dump nor part of the problem. My assumption is that to change "styles" vArranger is sending a Performance change using MSB/LSB/PC and this does indeed incur a penalty in terms of milliseconds.

The fact that other keyboards do not do this is not interesting as architectures for different keyboards vary wildly. There's also a whole stack of keyboards you'd have to manually feed tape or punch cards or magnetic strips to change out the sounds - which would be a 30min-day(s) penalty. That's exaggeration (I'm sure you're comparing to modern keyboards) - but the fact that the XS, several generations back, has a similar issue helps demonstrate this is an architecture difference. You may have to get creative with your usage. I'm not willing to shell out for vArranger2 - so what I can help with directly is limited. If you can change styles without changing Performances (sending the MSB/LSB/PC - keep the same sounds) - then this is one path to take. If not possible, it's a feature request.

I'm assuming you are using this live and am planning on only using the Montage (and not in conjunction with another keyboard).
  1. one week ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thank you very much but my problem is, if I want to change a style with 8 sounds in the montage (via Midi IN Multi GM mode) with vArranger2 (software aranger), delay comes.
If I just want to change sounds, everything is fine.
This means that if you switch several sounds simultaneously via the Midi input, there will be a delay.
  1. one week ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 7
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
If I understand your question correctly....Check to see if you have your arpeggio settings to realtime or measure. If its realtime then the rhythm (arpeggio pattern) should switch instantly. If its on measure it will wait until it finishes the bar its currently playing to keep everything in sync.
  1. one week ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hello!
I have the following problem:
I have a delay (latency) when switching to a different style (rhythm):
With vArranger2 and Ketron SD1000 I have no problem, but with Yamaha Montage 6 (also with Motif XF6) always comes a small delay (GM / multi-mode).
If I only want to change one sound, for example For example, a drum kit (Part 10), everything is fine, but a style changes in eight sounds at a time, and then comes a delay?
So everything is about Montage Midi IN.
( vArranger2 Midi Out - Montage 6 Midi IN).
Problem is in Montage not in vArranger2. Same is with Motif XS.
A kolege has Korg PA4 and Motif XS and has the same problems with Motif XS

Can someone help me?

Best Regards
  1. 2 weeks ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I think if you experience a problem with Montage's lag recalling a new target Performance - then you're either misusing the tools available - or you have some high demands such as requiring simultaneous use of all available PARTs and having no rests at all in your music such as perhaps EDM or related AND your take on this music is not to have any gaps AND not having some other device which can "carry the tune" (if the beat really never stops) through Performance changes.

I think I can dream up of certain situations where demands would be too high without having to get another keyboard (or drum machine or...). But I have no idea if the user is really pushing the boundaries this much - or just needs to reevaluate usage to make the system work to their advantage.

The OP could supply more information about how the instrument is used.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I agree with Sladjan. I am using the Montage live all the time, switch lots of sounds in a song, no problem. I use scenes or the AF buttons for switching as well - depending on what’s best in the situation. This is really a synth built for live!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 11
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Talking about using the Montage live,
M complains because there is a perceived lag between changing performance 5-10 milliseconds? Is that for real?
BTW, I'm playing live and use only the Montage. Never had a single problem with any kind of lag and don't really understand the problem. I often use SSS or fast turning on/off certain parts in a song and never had a problem with.

Here is my problem in understanding: in which situation does a lag of 5 milliseconds, caused by changing from one "voice" to another cause a musical problem? Besides the fact that you have SSS, the ability to split sounds for faster access and so on.

I can't comment the other lags when using software.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 12
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The JM tool issue is something else entirely. I'm not sure why computer tools would need to use such a slow pipe like USB MIDI (bulk dumps) ever. There's a USB link. There should be a full-USB2.0-bandwidth transfer. Incidentally - USB transfers (in USB terms, using an endpoint) is also called "bulk". A different thing from the 7-bit bulk MIDI dumps over a slow serial link.

The computer interface would do well with a published set of methods / API to binary transfer data through USB for faster manipulation of data for tools such as JM Tools and other similar 3rd-party tools. All that I am aware of that has such a transfer mode are songs (MIDI files) and there's not exactly documentation for this. It doesn't really help since transfer of MIDI files is mostly useful as a step for ARP generation - which I'm not sure there's a way to promote a song to an ARP through USB and/or USB-MIDI (including Sysex).

What I'm saying is that the JM tool is totally different than this Performance lag thing. The JM Tool issue is at a very high level. That I'm aware of, there simply isn't a "bridge" built to enable software to interact with Montage in an efficient way. So the computer is left with mostly archaic methods.

The performance lag deal is a lower-level architecture choice. This is a consequence of something else which is intentional. Where the JM tool has some chance of improving (building the bridge) - this lag has little chance of getting eradicated. It has gotten better - so there have been optimization opportunities in the past. However, there may be diminishing returns at this point as we may be at max optimization.

I do think you need to meet Montage where it's at and play to its strengths. Which means aligning with a new paradigm that may not agree with your wish. There is a roadmap you can lay out to be successful and have smooth transitions of your sounds if you respect what is possible, what is not, and apply tried-and-true techniques to manage sounds. You can be aware of spaces in your song when the keyboard isn't playing on every beat. Maybe this doesn't jive with your music -- maybe your music the keyboard is playing every 32nd note and all PARTs are all playing this at once -- forever -- through all kinds of texture (sound) changes so you just cannot do this. It's possible your music doesn't allow for any breathing room at all. This is generally when someone would get two keyboards and apply DJ techniques "cross-fading" between two keyboards so there is no hiccup.

My music has breathing room - so I have the luxury of spaces where switching instruments can be done. Even muting doesn't cut anything off because I mute while I'm playing a different PART (note-limited section of the keyboard) and the muted PART isn't playing anything so muting it doesn't cut anything off. This doesn't mean your music needs breathing room - just one reason why I may have a difference experience.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 13
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I agree with M here on some points. But I think you used the sss feature when you are really wondering about the latency between changing sounds. I think Yamaha should try to address that latency issue. To me it makes the technology feel unfinished. Even working with John Melas tools with it I thought it would speed it up, but in some ways the Motnage holds things back on loading sounds. Try doing a bulk dump of everything on Montage to his software. That is crazy slow.
Maybe they cannot make changes here but there is a reason why we would want it to change fast for sure.

I have a cheap smart TV and there is delay that occurs when using the video streaming apps. And sometimes apps themselves are lousy. Check out Sony Crackles for example - worst browsing history on my TV ever.

My point is: Everytime I watch tv and experience that delay I wonder if I should have bought a better TV with a stronger CPU. I live with it but I still think about a new TV. With the Montage I thought I already bought the best. So where do I go from here?


ONe thing I found that helps a little. Is to load up a bunch of sounds in the parts and then use the search feature to replace sounds from there. That is faster changing the sounds within a performace if that helps. This method is faster than adding a new part to a performance in a slot that was previously empty. Why the difference? I have no idea.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 14
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Some are going to be sticklers about the terms - because "voice" is a concept of a previous generation and this generation no longer uses the same paradigm. You're probably talking about latency when changing Performances. SSS, which you've mentioned, only makes sense when you're changing Performances -- so I'll run with that assumption (and not that you mean changing PARTs - which is possible - and probably, technically, the closest thing to what was once changing voices).

When you change Performances - this is when SSS can work. There are other threads about the rules. I won't clutter this one with a rehash. You don't like complete answers, as you've stated, because complete answers entail paragraphs. The key thing to mention is that SSS is about what is not changing. So SSS does not account for those new sounds that are in the 2nd (new) Performance you're switching TO. In other words, the sounds that carry-over AFTER the switch TO a new performance will carry-over with zero latency. That said, there is NON-zero latency to recall the 2nd Performance's sounds into memory. This non-zero latency is what you're complaining about - it's real - and has nothing to do with SSS ("seamless" only applies to the 1st Performance's sound - not the new one).

That said - you absolutely can use SSS in a live set. SSS just doesn't do what you want it to do. SSS doesn't make the new Performance load into memory faster. It makes the old Performance continue to sound and not cut out when you press a different performance on live set. Pick any organ sound. Save it as a live set. Organs don't decay. Press the live set slot of the organ performance and hold a chord. Now press any other live set slot with different sounds while holding the organ. Still hear the organ? That's SSS working. Latency of the new Performance is not an SSS consideration.

If you need zero latency switching between sounds - you need to NOT switch Performances. If you want to manage this - you can. You'll need to do some work. I won't rehash these techniques because they're waiting for you in other threads you've chosen to ignore.

Just like you cannot drive a car straight up a cliff. It doesn't work that way (within the "physics" of THIS keyboard). You'll need to pick a different route to get to the top of the mountain. Find the road that gently slopes up and around the mountain. It's a longer path - but still, you get to the top. That you cannot drive your car straight up the mountain is not a problem we're going to solve.

Apologies, in advance, for the tone if I'm mirroring any harshness here.

... that's the practical approach. On the wishful thinking side - "the long game" - it's interesting if there are competitive products that achieve about the same "normal" (non-switching) operation and also manage to switch between different "sounds" (whatever they're called in their native glossaries) without any latency. That's feedback that may inform future generations - but isn't going to help your here-and-now. Still, it's important for the feedback to be internalized (@ Yamaha) even if there are ways, following multiple-paragraphs, you can avoid the buffer-load latency.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 15
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
But Yamaha must take responsibility for this .I bought it for £ 2800 ,but the price is now £1300 on ebay.
poor product for live concert .I advice not to buy Yamaha Mo series ,better to go for Korg Kronos or Roland.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 16
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hello,
I have the same problem when I change with vArranger2 in Gm mode style always comes latency.
That's the same with Motif XS, XF, Moxf!
I also have Ketron SD1000, Korg Triton, Korg Kronos but with these instruments I have no latency.
I tried everything at Yamaha Montage but only with latency?

  greetings
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 17
  • Page :
  • 1


There are no replies made for this post yet.
However, you are not allowed to reply to this post.
2018 © Yamaha Corporation of America and Yamaha Corporation. All rights reserved.