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  1. Michael Trigoboff
  2. Vanity Monster Sherlock Holmes The Voice
  3. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  4. Sunday, 07 January 2018
I've been going through Bad Mister's and Manny Fernandez's FM-X Tutorials and I'm getting significant help in understanding the associated Performances from John Melas' Performance Editor. (For those of you who are familiar with it, the Performance Editor is something like the Motif XF VST Plugin, although I don't think the Performance Editor is a VST Plugin.)

The Performance Editor provides an overview of things that I would otherwise have to view piece by piece on the Montage touchscreen. Here's a view of the control sets from MFMX Mod Tutorial 1, which is the Performance used in Manny's FM-Xplorations Article 1:

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That looks like it might. Cut the workflow down. A lot.
But it is not going to cut 2 hours work down to 5 or 10 minutes.
But....
$70 euros is a bit pricey.
That's $85.00 USD.
Needs to be around Total $49.00 USD. That's The highest I Have ever Seen a really good editor sell for.
And a lot of them are free for different Keyboards.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 1
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Tom wrote:

That looks like it might. Cut the workflow down. A lot.
But it is not going to cut 2 hours work down to 5 or 10 minutes.
But....
$70 euros is a bit pricey.
That's $85.00 USD.
Needs to be around Total $49.00 USD. That's The highest I Have ever Seen a really good editor sell for.
And a lot of them are free for different Keyboards.

John Melas is a serious and competent software engineer and his products are a godsend for Yamaha's synthesizers users.
If you think Perfomance Editor is too expensive, remember what you paid your Montage and keep programming it manually.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Michele wrote:

Tom wrote:

That looks like it might. Cut the workflow down. A lot.
But it is not going to cut 2 hours work down to 5 or 10 minutes.
But....
$70 euros is a bit pricey.
That's $85.00 USD.
Needs to be around Total $49.00 USD. That's The highest I Have ever Seen a really good editor sell for.
And a lot of them are free for different Keyboards.

John Melas is a serious and competent software engineer and his products are a godsend for Yamaha's synthesizers users.
If you think Perfomance Editor is too expensive, remember what you paid your Montage and keep programming it manually.


Well, no offense, but...did you get your Montage for free? We all paid good money and Yamaha should at least provide us a basic software program to organize libraries, samples, etc. We don't ask more than the keyboard is capable of. Just yesterday it got on my nerves with the bad programming of category search function.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 3
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Michele wrote:
John Melas is a serious and competent software engineer and his products are a godsend for Yamaha's synthesizers users.


Nobody denies that he is a serious and competent software engineer.

Michele wrote:If you think Perfomance Editor is too expensive, remember what you paid your Montage and keep programming it manually.


The programming is still manually. The editor doesn't do the work instead of you. And I agree, 70 Euros is for me also a psychological border where I consider it costing to much. The editing directly on the Montage is thanks to the touchscreen in most cases straightforward, easy and fast. Those few additional functions on the software editor do not justify the price for me neither and this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact how much I paid for the Montage.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 4
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Well It does not matter. How good the person is at Their job.
It matters. What the product can do.
And If everything is still done manually on the Montage. Then .....
This editor is of No interest to me. I have editors. That actually interact with the Keyboard. Letting me.
Just set Things up from the Editor.
And Yes.
Yamaha. Should have a free interactive Editor. For the Montage.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 5
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Speaking as a retired software engineer, those of you who aren't skilled programmers most likely have no idea how much work it takes to produce software like this. John Melas is a professional who is making his living by selling this software. He needs to set a price that will give him a sensible financial return on the amount of work he did to produce the Performance Editor.

There are limits on what external software like this can do with a Montage, because communication between the editor and the Montage can only be done via MIDI. The Performance Editor has to work within those limitations.

This is high-quality software. The user interface is well-designed and works smoothly. I've been using it for about a month now, and have not run into any bugs, which is pretty good for software that was just released.

We each get to evaluate whether the Performance Editor provides enough value to be worth the price. For me it definitely does. The ability to see an overview of how the Montage is set up significantly helps me understand what's going on in the synth. That's worth way more than the price of the software to me.
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 6
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I am also a Retired. System/Analyst and Programer/Analyst.
I am not here to toot my own horn. But this conversation. Makes it impossible. Not to. Put in some of my background.
I was also an Efficiency expert. And Have the highest known score in 'Abstract Reasoning' in the world.(2002).
Money is not the object here! And it is not about the makers qualifications!
It is. What You get for the Money?
It is whether or not. 'The Editor'.
A. Saves You time.
B. Makes your programming the montage easier.
C. Improves your workflow And End result.
The Montage. Is a Very Deep complex Keyboard.
However. You can Buy Almost Every. Sound & Genre of. Great sound Libraries.
That are way Better Than You/Me(In General). Have the time or skill for.
And. What is your time worth? Put a Price on it. And that answer. Should Make Sound Libraries. Seem. Dirt Cheap.
And Presets/Libraries. Let You. Tweek! And. Not have to go real deep into the Montage(Unless You absolutely have to).
So IMHO. That $70 Euros. Would be Much better spent.
At Easy Sounds/Yamaha Sounds/Another 3rd. party Sound Lib. Than on that Editor.
If I bought that Editor.
A 3 hour setup of a Performance. Would Still take 3 hours. So. What help is it?
None. It has absolutely. No affect. On the final outcome of making a performance/Live set.
I would much rather be playing/Writing. During that 3 hours. That is what. We all bought the Montage for.
And again. I will say.
A Editor like this. or Better and way more interactive. Should be supplied with the Montage.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 7
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I’m happy with the Performance Editor. It’s worth the money to me. You’ve looked at it and decided it’s not worth it to you.

You’re not interested in designing your own sounds. I have an interest in doing that.

This doesn’t have to be a disagreement. We’re two different people with two sets of needs and expectations. It fits for me and it doesn’t fit for you. I’m OK with that difference.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 8
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I use both the Montage and the Performance Editor in tandom. The Performance Editor has definitely sped up my work flow.

The real speed increase for me is being able to do stuff in the Performance Editor on a single page which would require multiple and frequent page changes in the Montage UI.

It definitely makes a difference to me and I'm grateful for it!

Joe
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 9
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OK. My last post on this.
Editors Are in general A great addition. You Take a Roland or A Korg. (There is even a free one for the CS.) That U need a fast way to work on a Patch or....
And the Editor. In some cases. Is More than helpful. It is necessary for your sanity.(All free by the way).
I could not do without some of the editors I have.
But. They all. Actually Do something.
The Montage. Is not designed for an interactive or Loading/uploading. From a piece of software.
The Greatest Time saver I have found. For Building/Editing.
Is
Attaching a. Larger touch screen to the Montage.
This improves workflow/gig-ing significantly. Because.
U can see and touch. At A Normal size.
Everything. Without Bending your Neck to look.
Now. if You can not Remember. Your Workflow.
Then This editor(more like a checklist.). Might be 4 You. But. Just for That use. It is Way, Way over priced.
-------
Now. I am Not sure. I would want Yamaha Programmers. To build a interactive Editor.
Being Nice about it.
Lets just say a few of them. Do not have very good Logic about the paths. They make us take.
There are so many. Much more Straightforward ways. Things could have been programed.
That would let the user(Us.).Have a Much simpler workflow.
Of Course. I will Give that they might have been under. Way Tooo much pressure. To do things correctly.
In a much more logical manner.
Now in their OS UPdates. They Add things. And Fix Glaring mistakes. But They never. Go back and Redo. The Flow of things.
And. This is Yamaha history. They Have never done this. To my knowledge.
But now they have a Upgradable OS. This is When they should Start. Make it Simpler to use.
Many Many Keyboard players. Will not even look at a Yamaha.
Because. They are known. To be Too Complex.(not everybody is a brainy person).
And Korg. Also has this problem with the Kronos. It is just a Nightmare to dive deep into.(But I had a free editor 4 it)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 10
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John Melas Montage Performance Editor is really helpful and IMHO is worth the price. He's done real good software for the Motifs as well. Creating quality software takes a lot of time and effort and of course he was not paid by Yamaha to create it. Now on the other hand I do feel Yamaha should develop and release a basic editor and librarian for the Montage and make that available to Montage owners. Whether that happens remains to be seen.An Ipad app for the Montage would really be cool like Kronos Remote
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 11
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As I said in an earlier message, John Melas' Performance Editor is limited in its abilities by what the Montage supports via MIDI. I asked him when I bought the Performance Editor if it could deal with User Arpeggios. This is what he told me:
Unfortunately no, User Arpeggios and User Waveforms cannot be trasfered via MIDI
so they are not part of the Performance Bulk Dump!
If Yamaha supported more things in Montage's MIDI implementation (possibly by adding more SysEx messages), I am confident that John Melas would support them in the Performance Editor.

He is very responsive via email, so if you have any questions I encourage you to ask him.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 12
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I agree with most of the users who have some resentment over having to purchase another product in order to gain back some (or more accurately, one of the) features Yamaha took away.

My problem isn't with JM - I admire his products and his general place in the Yamaha community. I think he deserves any funds customers are willing to spend to gain his softwares' features.

My problem is with Yamaha policy.

I have also worked for a software/hardware company with millions of units sold and large/medium customers (government, all the household name companies, mom-and-pop shops here and there). Our hardware release schedule was much tighter than Yamaha's - so products would last a year then we would be sending a new version out a year later. There would be certain features we would propose "killing" to make room for something else to stuff in the box -- but each of these was scrutinized to the "T" because we also know that anything you give to a customer they are going to have a customer satisfaction issue with if you take it away. Particularly if it was something with value. Items had to be killed at the right time -- usually if the whole industry was abandoning it. An analogy: Like the VCR -- we had a few years of dual DVD+VCR players but then the industry stopped producing VHS - so eventually VCRs were killed and DVD-only was it. Now I don't know if Samplers or sequencers fit this category (a dying breed) -- and these weren't totally killed - just shuffled around a bit (use a computer to supplement). Back to the hardware and customers -- if you took something away, you had to have a few compelling new things to take the sting away. It helps a lot if these are replacements for what you took away. You don't make the customer "lob on" something dangling on the outside they have to pay for. This is where the customer satisfaction issue will clearly come up.

I've stated before I think Yamaha policy should be to provide a free method to do sampling so all the stuff you could do on-board Motif, you can do with Montage plus computer assist. Yamaha has all the core knowledge and already have tools to provide to sample houses for the "beefed up" version of this software code. Dumb it down (take out the wavelet and other proprietary compression stuff they do not want customers to be able to do) and wrap a GUI around it. OR cut a deal with JM - they can figure out the contract - so he gets compensated and users get his software.

There are features that JM tools handle that are value-add. I'm not saying Yamaha should provide that -- just the features taken away. So really it's just a small program which provides the sampler features and not the performance editing stuff that JM tools added.

The sequencer I believe they already provided with Cubase. That's close enough. It lets you edit note gate times and lengths and all that.

Customers will still likely want to get the JM tools in order to "see" the interface to edit performance in a cleaner interface since computer screens fit more on a screen.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 13
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Tom, why in your opinion, Yamaha ceased producing (good?) editor librarians for their synthesizers and workstations?

Tom wrote:

I am also a Retired. System/Analyst and Programer/Analyst.
I am not here to toot my own horn. But this conversation. Makes it impossible. Not to. Put in some of my background.
I was also an Efficiency expert. And Have the highest known score in 'Abstract Reasoning' in the world.(2002).
Money is not the object here! And it is not about the makers qualifications!
It is. What You get for the Money?
It is whether or not. 'The Editor'.
A. Saves You time.
B. Makes your programming the montage easier.
C. Improves your workflow And End result.
The Montage. Is a Very Deep complex Keyboard.
However. You can Buy Almost Every. Sound & Genre of. Great sound Libraries.
That are way Better Than You/Me(In General). Have the time or skill for.
And. What is your time worth? Put a Price on it. And that answer. Should Make Sound Libraries. Seem. Dirt Cheap.
And Presets/Libraries. Let You. Tweek! And. Not have to go real deep into the Montage(Unless You absolutely have to).
So IMHO. That $70 Euros. Would be Much better spent.
At Easy Sounds/Yamaha Sounds/Another 3rd. party Sound Lib. Than on that Editor.
If I bought that Editor.
A 3 hour setup of a Performance. Would Still take 3 hours. So. What help is it?
None. It has absolutely. No affect. On the final outcome of making a performance/Live set.
I would much rather be playing/Writing. During that 3 hours. That is what. We all bought the Montage for.
And again. I will say.
A Editor like this. or Better and way more interactive. Should be supplied with the Montage.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 14
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Michele
Isn't everything about $ these days?

Now back to Your question. Well they are hoping. 3rd. party And. Even. Free editors will be supplied by Good Souls(Fools in their eyes).
As is the case with the CS and many, many other Keyboard products. There are people out there.
Making these great editors. and. Just giving them away.
So Companies. Are taking advantage of saving $. Why build it. When Someone else will do it for free.
But. You can not do that with a Montage/Genos.
You need Access to the OS. To make a Good one. And Yamaha. Is never going to let Their OS out.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 15
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi Tom, hi all,
I think this discussion goes a wrong way.
First of all, John Melas is working hard to give users a good altanative instead of using the instrument. His software is very good programed and the price is to cheap I think. You get a great editor and You get the updates for no more pay.
It's not fair. John does a great job.
I bought the editor and can't use it now, because the accessibility is not ready now. But in an e-mail-coversation I had, he told me, that he is working onit. As a blind user can use all his Motif Tools well. And he will help us in the future.
I hope, that a lot of users will buy this Performance Editor. It is a good altanative!
And John is working on other editors too.
Rainer
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 16
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Ok
I have been sucked back into this thread Again. But really This is the last time.
Fist Stop being a Fan of John(or Whoever!).
That Is totally wrong.
This is about What U get for The $. Value!
I personally do not care. How Talented. Any person is. OR.
How hard they worked. It is only the End result. That counts.
(You should have seen some of the Useless products. I was given. By companies to make. At $250.00 Per hour.).
I was a consultant my last 8 years in IT.
I worked very hard too. Did not mean a thing. When the product was not good.
---
If They(Who ever) Produce a Very usable product. That will help me. I will buy it.
This editor. Will not help me. For me. It is a Checklist at best. And Some. Need that kind of thing.(I make notes.)
For $70 Euros. *$85USD. I do not. Want it or Need it. And. Would not Really Pay Anything for it.
It is not a Need!(I have a Need or Want list.)
And It is not John's Fault. That it can not be more. Than it is.
That is Yamaha's fault.
You Must Be able to. Work with/In the OS. To Make a proper Editor for the Montage.
So Yamaha. Step up. And Give us a proper editor for the Montage.
And John. I am in no way insulting You. You and this editor. May get Yamaha. To open their doors to You(NDA).
And Do a Joint Complete Editor.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 17
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I'm retired and so I can't buy stuff on a whim like I use to (HW and SW synths, guitars, amps, firearms, etc.) BUT will be buying John Melas's Montage editor next month - to me functionality to the value will be worth it. I'd have bought it already but I bought too much OTHER SW over holidays - LOL.

YES I'd like John's editor even more if it were cheaper, or if John offered a "cross grade" or customer loyalty pricing thing from my previous MOTIF editors but I'd also like to buy a bottle of 18 year old Macallan's for $20 instead of over $200!

1). My eyesight is not what it was when I was 20-40 or even 60 years old, and

2) I have multiple back, hip, and shoulder issues and I can only edit hunched over board for for 10-15 minutes at a time - no matter what height the keyboard stand is set at, from knees to all the way to almost shoulder height (and I'm 6' 2";), or the TILT angle with the exception of almost vertical, in which case the keyboard has to be secured with straps and I need to use another keyboard to trigger/play the Montage because I can't play the keys "in the vertical," I'm scuba diver, albeit usually not a DEEP SEA diver (I don't buy too many libs) so I do a lot of editing.

SO I am really looking forward to John Melas's editor. It will be a God send - I will be able to work at a COMFORTABLE EYE level with a LARGE screen (relative to the the size of the Montage's. No that was not a hit on the Montage - if I didn't have to bend over to use it and my eyesight were better it's a perfectly fine size!) for hours if need be.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 18
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
As a final customers we might have another strong weapon at our side... don't buy if an instrument is not supplied by a very efficient and powerful editor librarian...
Maybe this could make Yamaha rethink again about its sales strategy
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 19
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Honestly,
it's not easy to be a keyboard manufacturer these days.

There is one group of people who complains because there is no sequencer on board, and then there is the other group who complains because they wants to edit sounds on a computer instead directly on the keyboard.
Two groups with exact the opposite wishes.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 20
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