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  1. Sladjan
  2. The Voice
  3. MONTAGE
  4. Wednesday, 31 May 2017
Hi!
I need help with this because it confuses me totally and before I delete some important user data, I'd like to ask for some help and explanation about the necessary steps. The manual is confusing and doesn't describe what and how to do.
Here is the problem:
I have user created waveforms. Two of them right now, more to come. They have the extension .x3w which the Montage can load.
When I load them into the Montage, the keyboard loads it automatically as a library. So, loading two single waveforms occupies automatically two libraries. I don't get the deeper reason for this.
Now, when I create my new single part performance, I use these two waveforms (just to remind, they are actually multisamples) for the awm elements. But they are used from the library area! They are not part of the user area where all my created performances are. So, the question is: how do I move those two waveforms to the user area, so that I can save everything at a later moment as a single library file? At one point I will use up all eight slots for the library and how am I supposed to load more waveforms after that?
Another thing: there is no possibility to import the waveform from the library into the user area! Unlike with performances which you can see when you tap on the "import from library", there is nothing shown and therefor nothing can be selected and imported to the user.
At this point I'm stucked. So right now I have a few performances which are in the user area and one single part performance which uses two user waveforms. How to save all this data to a single file as a backup or custom/user library? I could perform a "save library" command, but will it save the waveforms which are not in the user area?
I would appreciate some clear steps here.
Responses (24)
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
When I load them into the Montage, the keyboard loads it automatically as a library.
We can stop right here. The keyboard does not do anything when it comes selecting how to load, automatically... you must drive!

If you mean the default "CONTENT TYPE" happens to be set to LIBRARY - that does not mean you want to take that path... In fact, based on your post that is not what you want..

For what you want to accomplish: you actually want to load just the WAVEFORM data to Montage and you want to work on it. That means you want to redirect it to the USER Bank!

Here's where you went off the path... If you have a .X3W - a Motif XF "All Waveform" File and you want to load it to the Montage to build a PART; You want to do "work" on this data... All work must be done in the USER Bank. Think of data in USER as being in RAM - you can work on data in RAM.

So first thing you want to do is redirect that .X3W file to the USER Bank (load it as a USER FILE).

Insert your USB drive with your .X3W file
Press [UTILITY]
Touch "Contents" > "Load"

Since you want to direct the load to the USER - set the "Contents Type" = USER FILE
Find your .X3W File in the listing
You will receive a Warning about overwriting the current USER Bank... Since Waveform data will not disturb your current User Bank PERFORMANCES - there is no need to worry about current PERFORMANCE data being overwritten. The Waveforms will just simply take their place on the USER Waveform List.

Once your data has Loaded you can begin to construct AWM2 PARTS from that data, in the normal way. Here's an example step-by-step:

Starting from the [PERFORMANCE (HOME)] screen
Press [CATEGORY SEARCH]
Select "Init"
Select "Init Normal (AWM2)" - if you will be building a Normal instrument PART.
Select "Init Drum (AWM2)" - if you will be building a Drum Kit PART.

Let's assume Normal for this example: This will place an initialized PART in slot one of a PERFORMANCE - it will contain Preset Waveform 0001 by default (which happens to be, surprise, a Piano). You will simply change this to one of your WAVEFORMS and begin to build your AWM2 PART.

Press [EXIT] to return to the main PERFORMANCE Home screen
In PART 1 you will see that "Init Normal (AWM2)" has been assigned to the first slot
Press [PART SELECT 1]
Press [EDIT]
With PART 1 selected and in Edit you can select "ELEM 1" in the screen (along the bottom) or you can use the third row of front panel buttons (right front panel) to select "Element 1". You will see it is active (blue) in the screen

Touch "Osc/Tune"
You will be viewing PART 1 - Element 1
The default PRESET 1 Waveform is shown - it has an organ envelope (immediate on, full volume while held, immediate off)
Touch the box that identifies Waveform Preset 1 by Name

A pop-in menu with the words "SEARCH" and "NUMBER" appear.
Touch "SEARCH"
Use the Waveform Category Search (orange) options to narrow your search...
Touch the "Bank" box - currently you are viewing the PRESET Waveform List (6,347 Preset Waveforms)
Set Bank to "USER"
Set the Category to "ALL"

You will now see a list of your User Bank Waveforms... Select the one you wish to use for ELEMENT 1 of this new PART.
Return to the OSC/TUNE screen with [EXIT]
You can select ELEMENT 2 and repeat - by assigning a Waveform to it and so on...
Each PART can have 8 Elements

Now you can edit it like any other PART.

Rename and then STORE your new PERFORMANCE.... it will become one of the 640 USER Performances you can create in your USER Bank. It will be a Single PART Performance unless you add more to it - you can add additional PARTS as you desire or require.

Once you have populated your USER Bank, you can then SAVE your data as (SAVE AS...) LIBRARY FILE (.X7L) - then you can CLEAR (DELETE) the USER Bank and Load your new File Bank as a LIBRARY for long term storage and access.

So, the question is: how do I move those two waveforms to the user area, so that I can save everything at a later moment as a single library file?
You Load them (all the Waveforms from the (.X3W) file as USER FILE. This places the Waveforms in USER WAVEFORM memory... where you can work on them... You jumped to putting raw data into a Library and that was where you went left instead of right.

Instead, by placing all the Waveforms in the USER Bank, you can then build them into what you can SAVE as a LIBRARY File (.X7L) and then you can install them to Read Only Memory (ROM - a Library is ROM, you can not *work* on the data in ROM)

Anytime you wish to add new data to a Library, you must IMPORT the Library Data to USER, add your new data... Save a new Library File - and then you substitute the New Library for the old Library.

Hope that helps.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi BadMister,
thank you very much for your very extensive walk thru, there is even more than I need, but hopefully it will be useful for some others how are completely new to the programing.

However, here is one thing that I forgot to explain to you and why I ended up using the load as library for my waveform instead to loading it into user file:

The problem is that loading a user file erases all the content in the user area. Loading a .x3w file erases all user waveforms from the montage memory. And I have two separate waveforms in two separate x3w files and here is where my problems or nightmares begin! :(

Here it is where your explanation is unclear how am I supposed to work in the future with new waveforms which I have as .x3w files?

Let's make it simple for the start:

1. I load waveform Piano.x3w into the montage as user file. It contains one single waveform.

2. I create a user single part performance.

3. I save all my user content as a library file, named sladjan.x7l (if I remember right the extensin, it is just for explanation purposes)

4. I delete the user area

First question at that point:

All my work is now saved as a library. I can load it as library or as user file. Can I load it back as user file because I still want to work on that file, fine tune performances and so on?

And now to go on:

5. I have a second waveform, Brass.x3w (with just one single waveform) that I want to load into the montage and use it together with (all!) my previous waveforms.

6. If I load the Brass.x3w waveform, it will overwrite all my existing waveforms from the user area!!!

How do I handle this??? Up from this point, the Montage becomes an incredibly frustrating device.

This is what I suppose but right now I'm not next to my montage so I cannot try it out:


a. I load my previously created personal library without importing it to the user area, just as a library.

b. I delete/clear the user area.

c. Then I load my waveform(s) x3w into the user area and create performances with them.

d. Then I import my library file to the user area which means that all my performances and the rest of the library will be added to the newly created performance with the previously imported waveform(s) to the user area.

e. Now that I have merged my newly created performance(s) which use the lastly imported waveforms with those performances and waveforms from my library data, I can save everything again as a new library and repeat the process as long and as much as i want and need to.

Cann you tell me whether I'm right with the steps from a to e as how it is supposed to work on the montage?

Keep in mind, users will want to add new waveforms not only imported as a library but also created on a computer with software. The above mentioned steps are really really tedious!

Is there a simpler way?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 2
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Yes, there is an easier way. The .X3W File Type is a Motif XF "All Waveform" file. It can contain as many as 2,048 Waveforms. Montage can import those Waveforms directly into memory from that file. When you create your 'All Waveform' file ensure that, literally, all of your Waveforms are in that file. In the XF any file with the designation "All" would completely overwrite the target... so it should not be a surprise that loading it replaces the Waveforms in the target.

How to proceed
The .X3W file can be created by either a Motif XF (where it is quite easy to assemble the Waveforms and Save the file) or using the Melas Motif Waveform Editor (where it is even easier to assemble the Waveforms and Save the file).

As a test to see how long it took to assemble the 60, or so, Waveforms from the Motif XF's CS80 Library with a set of 50 Waveforms I created back when I first got the XF.

Open both files in the Melas Motif Waveform Editor (seconds)
Create a new blank WAVEFORM File (click)
Select ALL Waveforms in the CS80, cut and paste into the new WAVEFORM file (seconds)
Select ALL Waveforms in my set of 50 and paste them starting at number 61 (seconds)
Save .X3W file to USB stick.

Load ALL WAVEFORM file to Montage to the USER Bank
Start programming

It took far more time to type this far than it did to assemble the Waveforms into the .X3W file...

The solution is at the other end of the process. Prepare the data before taking it to Montage. Don't try to load single Waveforms one at a time from a file designed to replace All (that works against you). The Montage can read and import a maximum of 2,048 Waveforms from a single .X3W file... you're attempting to move a pile of hay one strand at a time... create a bundle and you can move the whole pile in a single operation.

By the time I turned on my Keurig 2.0 and brewed a cup of joe, all 110 Waveforms were in the User Bank ready for a Montage programming session.

Hope that helps with your specific requirement. Although you don't say just how you prepared your .X3W file... but try assembling the All Waveform file before taking the data over to Montage.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Dear badmister,
somehow it seems to me that you are trying to avoid the answer! ;)
I'm not coming from a motif, I'm coming from kurzweil and I'm converting my multisamples which I used in the kurzweil with the awave software converter. The conversion is good and it creates a x3w file.

Maybe I could merge multiple waveforms at once.

But please, this is important:

At some point in the near or distant future, I will want to add a new user waveform to the existing ones which are in the user area. That is what I do and I believe a lot of other users do.
So, the simple question is still "on the table" and this is it:

how do I add new user waveforms to the existing ones which are already in the user area?

(you don't need to be detailed in the process what to press and where, I can find all that by myself, just tell me/us the workflow)!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 4
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Sorry, I'm not familiar with Awave.

You must prepare your Motif XF Waveforms in whatever program you use (does Awave allow you to assemble Waveforms as I described the Melas Waveform Editor does? or not?) If not, I recommend until some other method comes along, you look into getting a conversion program that allows you to assemble Motif XF format data as I described (in detail)

I hope you understand that if you are using a Motif XF format to input Waveforms to Montage - the way it works in the current system is to have Montage convert those Motif Waveforms into Montage Waveforms - it reads the .X3W ALL WAVEFORM format and writes them in its own format. The fact that the file moves multiple Waveforms is a feature (not a problem)... You just need to do a more efficient job of assembling your data so Montage can convert it efficiently.

I'm not sure what workflow you are looking for... The Montage can load Voice, Arpeggio and Waveform data from the Motif XS, Motif XF and MOXF... .

If you load an ALL VOICE file (.X0V or .X3V or .X6V) Montage will extract the data that it can use from that file and create Montage data
If you load an ALL file (.X0A or .X3A or .X6A) Montage will extract the data that it can use from that file and create Montage data

The Motif XS/XF and MOXF Voices will be placed in Single PART Performances in the Montage, any Waveforms used in those Voices will be loaded, as well. The Montage will even extract the sample Waveforms recorded to the Integrated Sampling Sequencer (.X0S/.X3S; .X0P/.X3P) of the XS/XF and place those in memory. It will also extract the USER Arps.

If you load an ALL ARPEGGIO file (.X0G or .X3G or .X6G) Montage will read the data and place it in memory.
If you load an ALL WAVEFORM file (.X0W or .X3W or .X6W) Montage will read the Waveform data and place it in memory.

At some point in the near or distant future, there may be other ways to effectively import User Waveform data into Montage. But current situation is you need to prepare your data in a Motif XS, Motif XF, or a program like the Melas Motif Waveform Editor which allows you to create both .X3A and .X3W files (quickly and efficiently).

The Montage is not a sampler... The Montage has a sample playback engine. And because data need to be converted before it can use it... the current system is what it is.

Current situation is you can load User data, as WAVEFORMS created for the Motif XS/XF or MOXF. I described this for you (in detail), I thought you were working on something specific, silly me. But trust me - it took literally no time at all to assemble the data, create the file, and load the data. Use the best tool for the job... when it comes to assembling samples into Waveforms and Waveforms into compatible files for Montage...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 5
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Let me ask you one simple question:

DO YOU FEEL AT LEAST A LITTLEBIT EMBARRASSED???

I swear with my life, I would if I would if I would be you.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The Awave tools, if they work, may be a fine alternative to JM tools. I haven't tested to see what Awave produces. I did download it at one point (version 1.11) and now there's a newer one. Not sure why I never cracked it open - maybe because I wanted to "save" its use for when I really needed it to stick with the 30-day trial period.

The two tools basically advertise accomplishing the same thing - you can take a raw sample in multiple non-Yamaha formats and construct your own Yamaha-format Waveform. Yamaha-format Waveforms will have the format (extension) .X?? and there are a variety of formats which work for what you're trying to do.

JM Tools have some limited audio editing capabilities (cross fade, taper, etc). Maybe Awave has that too. Your basic workflow is not different than most samplers - so I feel like I'm not offering anything in describing the workflow at a high level, but here I go:

1) Get audio data in some standard audio format that the software accepts (wav, aiff, sf2, flac, ogg, mp3, wmv, asf, etc)
2) Use some audio editor to manipulate/edit/shape the sound if you want to use more dedicated tools to edit audio before converting to a sample. This would be considered pre-processing
3) Use some sample-to-Yamaha-format conversion tool to convert a "raw" audio binary file to a Waveform (keybank+sample) Keybanks describe what keys play the sample, panning, level, loop points, etc.
a) Yamaha suggests JM tools for this. I'm not a fan of the strategy - since Montage "took away" the ability to manipulate samples on-keyboard and did not replace, at launch, the functionality with a free-with-purchase solution to end-to-end arrive at the same point using a computer+software. Right now, your "best bet" is to use the JM tools.
b) Or use Awave, or the Chicken Systems thing, or anything else which claims to do this conversion. Other software may be better or worse - that's for you to research and decide as you mentioned.
c) Hand generate a compliant file yourself. This is not trivial. But considering JM tools only deal with non-compressed data (meaning Yamaha proprietary compression of the Yamaha-format Waveforms) - it's not impossible.
4) Export to a format Montage can read from said tools. There's plenty of docs around to the formats accepted and Awave claims to support a few - JM Tools supports them too with verified success.
5) After loading into Montage, you may find certain notes are not "balanced" the way you want. You may need to adjust levels of different regions of the keyboard. Or you may find the pitch stretching is not to your liking and need to add more samples. Or you may find your loop points are not optimal and need to adjust those - so go back to the 3rd step and work out those kinks (adjusting values that are inside the Yamaha-format Waveform settings).

The basics of Yamaha-format Waveforms are that they include (at the basic level) at least one sample and each sample can cover a note and velocity range.

I guess you could look all this up, so I won't write a book. Loop points, root note, and the rest are standard terms for all samplers.

Another possible workflow solution is to give your sample content to someone and pay for them to engineer you a Yamaha-format Waveform file.

When you load a Yamaha-format Waveform file, it will place the content in "waveform memory" and your waveforms will be numbered starting after the last preset waveform #6347 (Reverse Cymbal2). I have a few in my waveform memory I added a while back experimenting with waveform import and usage in performances. In your performance, under each PART - under each element there's a "Load Waveform" button you can use to link a performance with a waveform (or multiple - different waveforms for each element). It's under the element "Osc/Tune" menu.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 7
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
When you load a Yamaha-format Waveform file, it will place the content in "waveform memory" and your waveforms will be numbered starting after the last preset waveform #6347 (Reverse Cymbal2). I have a few in my waveform memory I added a while back experimenting with waveform import and usage in performances. In your performance, under each PART - under each element there's a "Load Waveform" button you can use to link a performance with a waveform (or multiple - different waveforms for each element). It's under the element "Osc/Tune" menu.
The "New Waveform" box found on the "Osc/Tune" screen does not allow you to load Waveform, (as you call it). Rather, it let's you Load a .wav - the first step in building a Waveform.

if you loaded anything via the Element "Osc/Tune" screen, it was a .wav, not a Motif XF Waveform .X3W
(Oh, but I wish you could)..
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Away from the keyboard, I remembered the text wrong it's "New Waveform" which is more clear than "Load Waveform".

I haven't loaded a Motif XF data file with Waveform content - so I'm sure it sticks the files somewhere that makes sense the OP can go look up somewhere. Probably as a performance you can edit.

Apologies for the misinformation - thanks for the clarification.

... so after loading some wav or aiff file (using "New Waveform" - to create a very rudimentary Yamaha-format Waveform) it creates a the Waveform file and sticks it after Waveform #6347. This is only basic construction which allows for the wav file to have loop points embedded as programmed by an audio editor. You can edit the keybank information like note range and velocity, Fine/coarse tuning, level. Root note, play mode (forward, reverse), loop properties have to come in embedded with the wav file if parameters allow. Some are not available (loop reverse). So there's limited utility with this avenue.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I went ahead and finally "broke the seal" off of my own X3A content. I had a pack I purchased for a stint where I owned a MOXF6 (short-lived - not because I didn't want to keep it - but because my MO6 started working again and I found it hard to justify "needing" another 61-key).

So I haven't ever used this X3A - but I can load it up on Montage to put "what to do with Waveforms" through the paces.

First - I don't like messing with user memory. Even though the architecture is different, I treat USER memory like it's gold and shouldn't be lost and treat library areas as disposable since I always have the backup of a library on physical medium - but the user area is in flux and only gets backups when I manage to make them.

So anything I see that says it will erase user memory - I'll try to find some other way.

When I first tried to "load" the X3A - what I selected was targeting user memory and it correctly told me that I was about to lose user memory if I continued. So I cancelled. Note - I had already made both an X7U and X7L file for double-backups. No need for both - but storage is "free" and it doesn't take long to transfer user files unlike library files.

I then picked instead of "user" - "library" and saw I could load, from my USB, the X3A file (Sonidos De Mexico, if anyone's keeping track - I'll call it "Mexican" X3A since that's the name of the file).

Looks like you can load even translated content (like X3A) in as a library. Since the library area doesn't touch the user area - even though it takes longer to load - I pick this method. The wave forms (about 60) were all loaded past the users ones I had added before by using the "New Waveform" feature. When you click above the "New Waveform" box - there is the name of the actual waveform in use by each element. You will be presented with a "Waveform Category Search" where you can select any waveform. You can narrow down the search to only user area - or only library area by selecting the appropriate "bank". For me, it was the bank labeled "Mexican-15-01-29.n3"

Since this is an "A" (all file) as in X3A, I also got performances which aren't perfect anyhow due to differences in Montage vs. the Motif. I won't get into what's messed up - but that wouldn't matter so much because the Waveforms appear to be there and you shouldn't have any problems using the tools you're considering. Most issues come from Yamaha or 3rd-party provided content (X3A, etc) not ones you create yourself.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 10
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
My analogy would be a little bit less worried about overwriting data... Overwriting is a shortcut - to be used when you just want to clear your workbench. The User area is your workbench. Any thing you are working on will exist here. And it remains there until you do something to remove it (which always comes with a warning). When you first powered on Montage the only items that occupied the User memory was the Factory default system settings... but basically you have 0/640 Performance locations available, you have 0 User Live Sets, 0 User anything...

When starting out to build your own Library you should return your Montage to this condition ("Initialize User Data";) - assemble the content you want, either by altering Factory settings, loading from a file or Importing from ROM (Library)

User is your working area (RAM) where you can build, then save as a Library File... it is the Library File that can then be installed to ROM.
Both areas are rewriteable. But fear of overwriting!?! I'm saying when you are confident in how it works, it's your friend... you should actually utilize the Init all User data as a thing. Overwriting is just a shortcut to initializing User data.

But Overwrite with confidence... firstly, because when you are ready to put new data in User, you know for sure that's what you want to do. Turning away at the "warning", is, well, like not using a stove because it might burn you. (Yeah, until you learn to operate it properly). It's a necessary tool - so if you're going to learn Montage... mastering the User memory versus Library memory is going to be essential for efficient operation.

But the important thing to know is Library data is in little jeopardy of being lost... so the confidence there is well founded... because you obviously have the file that installed the data there. Almost any compatible file type can be installed to the LIBRARY area (every type but the .X7U file type... which overwrites just the User Bank.) so you may have many "works-in-progress" type User files.

Assembling a new bank... is always done in USER
Assembling a new bank... is accomplished by a combination of altering Factory Preset, loading data from a file, and importing data from an installed Library..
The User data is then written to a Library File .X7L
You can then clear User by initializing, and then install your new Library to ROM
(You clear User first so that make room for Waveform/Sample data)

Clear the User is clearing your workbench to start a new project.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 11
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
For my band, I use nothing else than user memory. Not from fear - but because it's all I need to use to get the job done. Other areas of memory are slow - or too many levels to use. So I don't use them. Therefore, I'm advertising my reluctance which is based on my workflow - which is inherently tailored to me and not meant to serve as a general warning to everyone.

Much like I know there are other keyboards out there in the world. And they all do nominally the same thing. But I stick with Yamaha primarily because I know "the system" and have adapted to work with Yamaha's concept of how things are done. This is also a personal choice that others may not make. And the fact that I generally know where the stick shift is (on the column), and how to hit the glove box to open it, and ... other maybe arbitrary things to other users (... obviously using analogies here) may not pan out the same for others.

So allow me to stick the the box I've painted for myself because I have a system that works. I'm aware of other options - and every once a while do things outside of my normal workflow to try to help someone else out. However, the strength of internal voices for what I play is a testament for the versatility of the instrument without having to go and seek out additional content or even load free stuff I have access to at the moment. My ability to perform my craft is fortunately not gated by available content in the presets.

The whole choice of where to load is up to the individual - but I detected they had reservations about losing user area - so I offered a slow - but steady way to circumvent dealing with touching the user area just to get samples available on the keyboard. Assembly can still be done in the user area.

Anyhow - the OP has an unnatural desire to look certain things up while being helped on certain things - so hopefully there's enough meat on the bone to satisfy their very specific needs.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 12
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
For my band, I use nothing else than user memory. Not from fear - but because it's all I need to use to get the job done. Other areas of memory are slow - or too many levels to use. So I don't use them. Therefore, I'm advertising my reluctance which is based on my workflow - which is inherently tailored to me and not meant to serve as a general warning to everyone.
Good... that's important because fear should not be a reason for avoiding using a feature... Everyone should find a workflow that makes them comfortable. I think it was this comment that is troublesome:

"First - I don't like messing with user memory. Even though the architecture is different, I treat USER memory like it's gold and shouldn't be lost and treat library areas as disposable since I always have the backup of a library on physical medium - but the user area is in flux and only gets backups when I manage to make them.

So anything I see that says it will erase user memory - I'll try to find some other way."


If writing a manual or guide for how to use this, it would give me pause to read... "Don't ever Overwrite User..." when the raison d'etre for User memory is exactly that... memory that you can actually Overwrite!

But if it works for you that's all that matters. No worries.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 13
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
My question and the topic here is, how to load user created waveforms in a format that the Montage can read subsequently and the simple answer is:

THE MONTAGE CANNOT LOAD USER WAVEFORMS BESIDES YOUR VERY FIRST TIME. YOUR FIRST TIME IS YOUR LAST TIME. BUYERS BEWARE OF THIS AND AVOID THE MONTAGE IF YOU PLAN TO ADD NEW USER CREATED WAVEFORMS/MULTISAMPLES DURING YOUR OWNERSHIP OF THIS KEYBOARD.

The day after I found this out I'm still shocked and simply cannot believe what a disaster happened with this keyboard.

BadMister, is there any way you could ask those guys at Yamaha what exactly was on their mind when they decided to kill some most basic file handling features?

How did you exactly research what the users want???? Were there hundreds or thousands of users who wanted you to kill the "load single item" function?

For those who don't understand what the problem here is, this is how the Montage works right now.

Imagine you have folder on your computer. The first time you can put one or thousand files into that folder. Once you have done this, the next time you add a file to the folder, it will erase all your existing files in that folder. That is what the geniuses at Yamaha have come with after 15 years of doing it right on the Motif.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 14
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Bad Mister wrote:
You must prepare your Motif XF Waveforms in whatever program you use (does Awave allow you to assemble Waveforms as I described the Melas Waveform Editor does? or not?) If not, I recommend until some other method comes along, you look into getting a conversion program that allows you to assemble Motif XF format data as I described (in detail)


You pretend that you don't understand, but the problem is not Awave, ChickenSys or JohnMellas, the problem is Yamaha and the mess they created with the Montage. You know it very well, I'm sure about this.

Bad Mister wrote:I hope you understand that if you are using a Motif XF format to input Waveforms to Montage - the way it works in the current system is to have Montage convert those Motif Waveforms into Montage Waveforms - it reads the .X3W ALL WAVEFORM format and writes them in its own format. The fact that the file moves multiple Waveforms is a feature (not a problem)... You just need to do a more efficient job of assembling your data so Montage can convert it efficiently.


You are insulting me and everybody else as human who have at least a basic form of intelligence. Don't do that. Stop it for Christ sake!

The problem is NOT that the Montage can load multiple waveforms at once out of a x3w file, the problem is that you cannot add a new waveform the next day or five minutes later. Please, don't pretend as if you have never used a motif.

Bad Mister wrote:I'm not sure what workflow you are looking for... The Montage can load Voice, Arpeggio and Waveform data from the Motif XS, Motif XF and MOXF... .


Again, you know very well what I have asked for. Please, don't insult customers that fill your paycheck.


Bad Mister wrote:If you load an ALL WAVEFORM file (.X0W or .X3W or .X6W) Montage will read the Waveform data and place it in memory.


Yes, and IT WILL ERASE ANYTHING that is in the memory. It will not merge with existing data and it will not add.

Bad Mister wrote:At some point in the near or distant future, there may be other ways to effectively import User Waveform data into Montage. But current situation is you need to prepare your data in a Motif XS, Motif XF, or a program like the Melas Motif Waveform Editor which allows you to create both .X3A and .X3W files (quickly and efficiently).


Two things:

1. It is so pathetic that a company like Yamaha depends on software that is written by a single person. Do you guys at Yamaha have any honest?

2. You have, no, you pretend to have no idea what I am talking about. John Mellas software right now is equally useless as the Montage is useless. The editor from John Mellas will create a x3w file. And again for you - I will not get tired to repeat it to you again and again and again and again: once I have loaded a user waveform into the montage, I'm not able to load a new one because it will erase the previous one. Please let me know if you don't understand what I have just written, I'll gladly repeat it.

The Montage is not a sampler... The Montage has a sample playback engine. And because data need to be converted before it can use it... the current system is what it is.

Bad Mister wrote:Current situation is you can load User data, as WAVEFORMS created for the Motif XS/XF or MOXF. I described this for you (in detail), I thought you were working on something specific, silly me. But trust me - it took literally no time at all to assemble the data, create the file, and load the data. Use the best tool for the job... when it comes to assembling samples into Waveforms and Waveforms into compatible files for Montage...


Current situation is that you think that I'm an idiot while I'm the one who pays your paycheck, being an idiot or not. That is a fact for the beginning. You described something what I did not ask you to do.
And then again for you:

Today I loaded a piano.x3w into the Montage. It is late here, tomorrow I'm going to load strings.x3w into the Montage.


Please, tell me, how to load the strings tomorrow into the montage without overwriting the piano that I loaded today.


And as if the Montage is not a disaster enough, here is more!!!!!!

I followed your instruction above about how to save/load/handle files and I saved all my work as a library. Let's call it badmister.x7l

Now, I cleared the user memory. You didn't say above how to do it (yet, you pretend all the time that my questions are not precise enough). I cleared it with the command "Initialize all Data".

Now, regarding the sound, the Montage is in its initial factory state.

I loaded the badmister.x7l as a library and all my performances and waveforms are now loaded as a library.

From that point, I imported my library into the user area exactly as you and Yamaha describes it with the "import library" function.

Let me quote you:

Once you have populated your USER Bank, you can then SAVE your data as (SAVE AS...) LIBRARY FILE (.X7L) - then you can CLEAR (DELETE) the USER Bank and Load your new File Bank as a LIBRARY for long term storage and access.

That is what I did.

I loaded my library file called badmister.x7l back into the Montage. Then, I imported it into the user area. That is necessary if I want to edit some of my files because - as we know - you cannot edit a file and save it while it is in the library.

After I loaded my library into the user area, I deleted the library file to avoid duplicates.

Here the fun starts!!!

All my performances are there in the user area as expected!!!

All my samples/waveforms are there as expected!!!


MY DEAR BADMISTER, PLEASE TELL ME, WHY I DO NOT SEE MY SETLIST WHICH I CREATED AND SPENT HOURS TO CREATE in the user area????
I followed every single step exactly as you instructed me and exactly as yamaha explains it here on this site.

Where is my setlist and why did the Montage not moved my setlist from the badmister.x7l file the user area????

DO YOU REALLY STILL NOT UNDERSTAND WHY THE MONTAGE IS A PIECE OF CRAP CREATED BY BRAINDEAD IDIOTS WHO HAVE NEVER IN THEIR LIVE SPENT 5 MINUTES IN FRONT OF A KEYBOARD?????

Let me rephrase it for you:

Where is my setlist?

How to move my setlist out from my badmister.x7w file into the user area?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 15
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I understand you're frustrated by ignoring a warning that user area would be erased (OK/Cancel). However, waveforms absolutely can be added without erasing user memory. I outlined the steps.

When I first tried to "load" the X3A - what I selected was targeting user memory and it correctly told me that I was about to lose user memory if I continued. So I cancelled. Note - I had already made both an X7U and X7L file for double-backups. No need for both - but storage is "free" and it doesn't take long to transfer user files unlike library files.

I then picked instead of "user" - "library" and saw I could load, from my USB, the X3A file (Sonidos De Mexico, if anyone's keeping track - I'll call it "Mexican" X3A since that's the name of the file).

Looks like you can load even translated content (like X3A) in as a library. Since the library area doesn't touch the user area - even though it takes longer to load - I pick this method. The wave forms (about 60) were all loaded past the users ones I had added before by using the "New Waveform" feature. When you click above the "New Waveform" box - there is the name of the actual waveform in use by each element. You will be presented with a "Waveform Category Search" where you can select any waveform. You can narrow down the search to only user area - or only library area by selecting the appropriate "bank". For me, it was the bank labeled "Mexican-15-01-29.n3"


To break it down in easier steps (just the X3A load step - I can't generate an X3W since I do not have the tools loaded, but the process should be the same). You can see that the reference manual (rev A0 page 22) shows the following Motif XF format filetypes can be moved to either the user area OR directly to the library area (*.X3A, *.X3V, *.X3G, *.X3W). This is under the heading "Internal Memory".

-1) Have to add: I always do a backup the user area as a sanity step. Doesn't take long to backup the user area. Until you get familiar with the keyboard, I would advise backing up everything using an X7A file in addition to user area X7U. This has been my general advice in previous discussions of backups. It may be paranoid - but an X7A is "everything" so you can't really go wrong there no matter how you cut it. More is better than less. Until you get your "sea legs".
0) Insert USB drive with X3W file into "USB to device" port on back of Montage
1) Press [PERFORMANCE] (HOME) button - just for sanity "reset" step
2) Press [UTILITY] button
3) Touchscreen (TS): Press "Contents" -> "Load" left-hand side menu tab options
4) At the top, you'll see "Content Type". It defaults to "User File". This is not only the type of file, but also the final DESTINATION for the load. If you do not change this, then when you try to load - you will first be warned that you will destroy the user area if you continue. The warning is a fail-safe mechanism to be sure you not lose data. If you do not heed the warning - you may end up upset.

At any rate, TS: touch this box and change it to "Library File". I still see as a choice the .X3A file on the USB stick (I see it available for both types of "User File" and "Library File"
5) TS: Touch the X3? file which contains your samples. For me, it was the Mexican*.X3A file
6) Grab a snack or do something else because library memory takes a long time to modify. Give it a good 10 minutes or so.
7) Once loaded, your waveform content will not have overwritten USER area - all user area content is still there for me.

I never did have to use my backup of the user area since it wasn't touched.

However, following steps "-1)" would have saved you from making the mistake of not picking the correct destination and/or not heeding the warning that user area would be overwritten.

Note that "Initialize All Data" sets your keyboard back to factory specs. Page 5 in the owner's manual table of contents:

"Restoring the initial factory settings (Initialize All Data)"


To clear user area only;

0) Make a backup of your user area (.X7U). Maybe even save an "all" file (.X7A) as well until you get your "sea legs".
1) [PERFORMANCE] (HOME)
2) [UTILITY]
3) TS: "Settings" -> "System" (same place as where "Initialize All Data" is found) - but pick "Initialize User Data".
NOTE: Again, if you backup properly, even "Initialize All" can be recovered from - using an X7A file with the 1.50+ firmware.

I'm sure these settings also have an "are you sure" kind of message. Although I don't have to clear anything - and even though I have a backup - I'm not going to double-check what the clear function does.

Your setlist got blown away when you initialized Montage to factory settings. This was the mis-step. If you saved an X7U file (user area backup file) - then according to the reference manual (page 22) - the X7U file is supposed to contain the user setlist.

Correction: "Initialize User Area" also claims to initialize the live set content. So at the moment I'm not sure of how to clear only the performance data without affecting the live set. Backups can restore various things. But dealing with just the live set as something to keep stable while erasing performances is not something I see as an easy thing to do. Maybe BM can help more.

User Performance
User Arpeggio
User Motion Sequence
User Curve
User Live Set
User Micro Tuning
Utility
Quick Setup


... so do you have the backup file of your user area before you started doing these operations - as suggested? Just wondering.

In my experience, before Montage does anything which would cause you to lose memory/settings/etc - there's a message that basically describes you will lose data and asks if you are sure you want to continue. Any time this message pops up the answer (in your mind) should be "yes, I'm sure because I already have a backup" - or "no, I want to cancel - make a backup first - then come back to this screen". Certainly different operations affect different memory areas - so you may not yet know what type of file you need to save for a backup - or understand when you already have a backup (like an original library file you can re-load). This is why I suggest you may want to save an .X7A file ("all file";) as your backup along with the user file - so you have your options open if you need to restore/recover down the line.

(almost) Finally, you do not have import Library content in the User area in order to edit/create new performances. The limitation without importing the data is that you cannot delete the library. Because as long as the Yamaha-format Waveforms are in the Library area - even User performances that use the same Waveforms will only "point" to the Library and will not create a local user-area Waveform. Therefore, if you [STORE] a copy of your library performance to the user area - you can manipulate the performance in all kinds of ways. Changing the elements to use different Waveforms and such. However, you must not delete the library for this user file to still work. If you do, then any Waveforms that were stored in the library area will not sound anymore because the pointer points to a deleted Waveform.

The choice of importing is therefore a choice of how permanent the library you have imported (for each sample) is going to be. Not a rule that you must import.

That said, I'm sure importing doesn't destroy anything critical either although I haven't yet tried that step myself.

... finally:

I don't think making mistakes is any insult to intelligence. The greatest minds have made plenty of mistakes. I do agree that Yamaha products have always had room for growth in the user-friendly-usability department. And I do understand some mistakes are harder to recover from than others - and this can suck because when you lose content you created you think, "man, how can I ever get this back exactly like I did it the first time. Not to mention all the time and effort I have to duplicate.". That is what backups are for - and it can be a hard lesson to learn.

I would urge you to remain "professional" even in the face of adversity. Because ultimately everyone here is trying to help you get the most out of your Montage. Even though there have been jabs and extraneous remarks - I (just me, personally) can give a "pass" as long as you can return to being open to help and stay away from personal attacks that are not meant to be constructive.

In the support role - you do have a wide range of user experience to deal with. Some users have a really hard time understanding how to use an elevator because it's too technologically advanced for them. Some users could design their own version of a Montage and bring it to market with little outside help. There's everything between - so it does take a few shots sometimes at support to calibrate the help to the user's individual experience level. I also know from personal experience it can be frustrating when you already have figured out steps 1, 2, and 3 -- and just want to get to steps 4, 5, 6. However, please also be open when someone wants to give the context including earlier steps as there are sometimes "gems" of experience and an opportunity to add to your arsenal even things you may have "figured out". Maybe not - but still keep in mind that supplying context is not an attack on you. Also keep in mind that the forum posts are read by other users who are less experienced so making sure the full context is in the answer helps others as well.

There's an interesting dichotomy of requests in your posts. On one hand, you ask not to explain things you can look up. And then you have complained about not receiving support of, for example, which initialize feature to use. These two requests are not exactly compatible if you look at from the standpoint that the reference manual is available as a PDF and can be searched. The word "initialize" appears 8 times in the Rev A0 reference manual. The various options and what they do are explained - so I edited an above comment about the "mis-step".
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 16
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Jason,
to make a long story short:

I didn't ignore any warning. I am wondering that such a big company after so many years suddenly creates something nobody was asking for in that way. I can understand that the research showed that almost nobody uses a sequencer on the keyboard, I can even understand that almost nobody samples with the keyboard. But please, don't tell me that the user wanted a filesystem where it is impossible to load an item without erasing the previous one. This can be an option, but as long as it is the only one, we are in the hands of brain dead freaks who have never ever in their live used a keyboard and worked with samples and sample data.

Now, let's forget for a moment the fact that it is impossible to load certain data in this instrument without erasing the previous one.

To answer your question:

Yes, I did a backup. I did it in the form of saving a library file. Now, you can load this file as a library and then move all your performances into the user area. But there is no way you can move the livesets which are saved within the library file. Once I delete the library, the livesets are gone because they are part of the library and not part of the user area and they cannot be moved/imported into the user area.

This is why I suggest you may want to save an .X7A file ("all file";) as your backup along with the user file - so you have your options open if you need to restore/recover down the line.


So, the user is supposed to save two files:

A library file where he can add/import items into the user area in case he needs it AND

A user file as a real backup which will load directly into the user area including the setlists?????

And then there is also a backup function.

And what exactly is the purpose of this crappy system? I can import performances out from a library, but not a set list. So, I have to have a user file. But if I don't want to overwrite items in the user area, I have to use the library file where I can add items to the user area, but only some items and not all.


At any rate, TS: touch this box and change it to "Library File". I still see as a choice the .X3A file on the USB stick (I see it available for both types of "User File" and "Library File"
5) TS: Touch the X3? file which contains your samples. For me, it was the Mexican*.X3A file
6) Grab a snack or do something else because library memory takes a long time to modify. Give it a good 10 minutes or so.
7) Once loaded, your waveform content will not have overwritten USER area - all user area content is still there for me.


I made the important part of your post bold. Here is the thing:

When you load a .x3a file as a library, it will be placed as a library in the memory of the montage. But since the file system is made by...people I described above, we are dealing with a half baked product and inconsistency.

The problem is that loading a x3a file as library will not overwrite your user files for the most logical reason that it is not considered as a user file. Now, in a desperate try, you will come to the idea that you could now import items from the library into the user are but you can't!
You can import a performance, but it will not move the waveform with it because it is not an original library file created by the montage and - as I said before - there is no way to move the liveset list out from the library area into the user area! Nor is there a way to add new waveforms from any file created outside of the Montage without deleting what you already have there.
See, we are screwed up again and again and again. Whatever you try to do with your data, this monster steps in your way and makes your life as difficult as possible.

The tragedy is bigger if you consider that they once had a working system.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 17
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I've mentioned it before that the user experience with the filesystem is an area for growth for Yamaha. Even on previous generations. It it slowly moving in the right direction although between legacy and "the new era" - you do run into growing pains.

Library files really are not appropriate for backing up user data. The main utility for generating a library file (from user data) is so you can save off your performances in a different storage area. But as a backup mechanism - I wouldn't advocate using library files. There was a time when I advocating saving library files, user data, an all file - every which file you can save including the "all". But libraries really should be a bit more intentional in that it's an assembly of data you already have backed up - perhaps rearranged from other library files (remixed) but still all data previously backed up as non-library.

Library files do claim to save your live sets. Here's the rundown:

Files of the “Library File” type saved to USB flash memory
can be loaded and restored to the dedicated area in the
User Memory of the instrument (page 22).
Library File Type data is as follows.
• Performance
• Arpeggio
•Motion Sequence
• Curve
• Live Set
•Micro Tuning
•Waveform


Files of the “User File” type saved to USB flash memory
can be loaded and restored to the dedicated area in the
User Memory of the instrument (page 22).
User File Type data is as follows.
• Performance
• Arpeggio
•Motion Sequence
• Curve
• Live Set
•Micro Tuning
•Waveform
• Utility settings
• Quick Setup


So the difference in user vs. library seems to be, in terms of categories of stuff saved, utility settings and quick settings not in libraries but in user files.

The saving "all" X7A - as mentioned a few times was more as a paranoid use of the function until you get more confidence. The purpose for X7A is not really for backup - but to transfer your settings (all of them) to a keyboard that isn't yours. Or one that is yours but you want to "transplant" every single spec of data from one keyboard to another so the two are identical in terms of content. I just leverage feature as a suggestion which you can take or leave - as proper steps would not normally require you to use .X7A. An .X7A is placed in all memory of montage. User, library.

Your user area really needs the backup since from time to time - you would want to delete the user area. So before doing this you need to generate a user file (.X7U).

You could upload the X7L file and there are a few people who can take a look and inspect for your setlist information. I have a tool - but it doesn't yet spit out the setlist information yet. Although I could feed it into the tool and modify a few lines to add that feature.

Maybe someday saving the setlist to a file (X7S?) will be possible. It would be best if you could "opt in" and "opt out" of overwriting different things (performances, arpeggios, motion sequences, curves, live set, micro tuning, waveforms) and then maybe just keep the X7U format - but you could save just one or pick-and-choose which settings you want to save. When you pick just setlist - you could name the file "Just my setlists.X7U". Then when loading this file, it doesn't smash user performances - but just smashes the user setlist area. Better implementation would always save all user data - then allow for a filter on loading so you can select just setlist, for example - but every save always saves what it does today (all user data).

This is only addressing part of your experience and a doesn't-exist-yet ("vaporware";) method of solving the issue. Others also want other features in the saving I won't rehash here.

For sample+keybank (Waveform) importing the only limitation I'm aware of you have is in generating compressed Waveforms. The current sets of tools available to the public do not allow for compressed sampled and therefore these have to come as Yamaha-supplied or Yamaha-assist-to-a-3rd-party-supplied.

Otherwise, there are a variety of ways I believe to accomplish one of your original goals (and with success) to import a Waveform you generated with external tools to "grounds up" an X3W and load into Montage eventually landing in any area you choose (user or library). Most of this has been outlined - and I do understand a loss of confidence when running into other issues along the way. Got to chop these down one by one - hopefully the right colored lights will go off eventually. This is not a slam - I mean hopefully we'll pull this airplane out of the descent before crashing with high-fives all around and inspirational music in the background.

BTW: I do appreciate the more constructive discourse, so thanks for working with me.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 18
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Jason wrote:
I've mentioned it before that the user experience with the filesystem is an area for growth for Yamaha. Even on previous generations. It it slowly moving in the right direction although between legacy and "the new era" - you do run into growing pains.


There was once an option to load a single item and add it to the existing items. That's how all our computers work. Point. End of discussion. You either do something right or you do it wrong. Yamaha doesn't produce keyboards since yesterday. And I do not want to be an idiot next to my drummer. He sits on his instrument and starts playing it right away, and I have to search for solutions because instead of adding features, suddenly we are in a state where Yamaha remove features and we, the users, are not able to add new files to the existing ones.

Jason wrote:BTW: I do appreciate the more constructive discourse, so thanks for working with me.


I'm absolutely with you on this. Sorry for my sometimes harsh words. They are directed to Yamaha and their cocky and arrogant employees and not to you. ;)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 19
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I know where I stand - but the world is watching. When you see a heated argument in public - even if you're not involved - you get this sinking feeling. There's a dark cloud even if not directed at you. Also, just friendly advice as you tend to get a point across when keeping things positive (even in the face of faults, wrongs, broken stuff, hard to use stuff, etc).

Let me know if you want me to take a look and try to extract out your live setlist (sending the X7L you said you created as a "backup";).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 20
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