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  1. Michael Trigoboff
  2. Vanity Monster Sherlock Holmes The Voice
  3. MONTAGE
  4. Sunday, 14 July 2019
I think that here in the 21st Century, it’s just ridiculous that we have to transfer files between our computer and the Montage by physically moving a USB drive, especially since there is already a USB connection between the two devices. It’s not a huge thing, but I am really hoping that this will be included in firmware 3.0.
Responses (11)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I've mentioned this before as well. Currently song files can transfer using Montage Connect as a USB file transfer. It would be nice if library files, user files, backup files, audio files (wav, aiff), screenshots, firmware, even the Performance catalog, etc. could all be transferred using USB (cable to computer) file transfer in a similar manner also allowing 3rd party tools access to these file transfer methods. This would streamline JM tools even more than available today. The firmware process - assuming your firmware is updated past the availability of this feature - could automatically create backups (X7A) for you before updating in order save your work which would prevent some "oops" moments.

Currently some of this is only accessed through MIDI-over-USB - which is very slow and slows down JM tools and other potential applications. And then some is not possible at all without using the USB stick go-between.

The "nice" thing about forcing a USB stick is that it automatically creates one backup - the USB stick. Since usually you'll be copying that stick to a computer which is your 2nd backup. Although it isn't the best thing for efficiency.

It's just speculation, but I believe brand loyalty is increased when use of potentially complex electronic device is streamlined. Apple products tend to fit this category (vs. "identical function" counterparts in the Windows or Android domain). Not a war on brands - because the Yamaha/PC/Android approach tends to give more power to the user - which some appreciate. Not the masses - but a large population. It is possible to provide the best of both worlds. Hiding complexity but allowing power users to open doors to the less hand-holding features.

I guess it's worth mentioning that for the most critical data - you have to use a USB stick. This forces "hands on" interaction. Presumably by the owner of the keyboard. If you open up file transfer through the USB cable - you also open up a potential door for someone other than the owner to manipulate data. So the USB stick serves as a "firewall" to your critical content. One way to perhaps protect the data is to provide a USB-Cable-Read-Only option which would at least, in read-only mode, greatly enhance data transfer in one direction. Writes/erasing/changes on the keyboard side could be protected (in read-only mode) with an on-touchscreen prompt which would block the malicious or accidental changes. For those who do not have a computer connected to the internet or otherwise are OK with the potential risk - they could turn this read-only mode OFF which would skip the "Are You Sure?" messages and allow free read/write.

... but security is, in general, one potential source of push-back.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
One of many things they shuld have done.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 2
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I think that here in the 21st Century, it’s just ridiculous that we have to transfer files between our computer and the Montage by physically moving a USB drive, especially since there is already a USB connection between the two devices. It’s not a huge thing, but I am really hoping that this will be included in firmware 3.0.
As one of the very few folks who successfully used the Ethernet connectivity implemented on the Motif XF, perhaps you are unaware of how few users were actually able to establish and run a network with their home computer and their XF. The implementation allowed you to read and write files to shared folders on your computer.

The fact that so few folks successfully adopted this workflow is probably the main reason you don’t see this implemented in the new synths (that and the SMB protocol became a source of problems on some operating systems). Reality was most folks couldn’t get past their own password protection. You used it (if I recall correctly) what did you think? How successful you were depended on your personal computer setup and your ability to troubleshoot networking with a router... (It was deep end of the pool stuff just to ante in)

Not sure why the 21st century is a surprise landmark for any of this... use of the computer, as omnipresent as it is today, is still not a fixture in every musicians studio and is not a big comfort zone for many... Many have found a certain level of integrating it into their musical lives. Some prefer not to use it at all. Given a choice in establishing a robust password protected transfer protocol (as was the case with Ethernet) versus transferring data via a USB stick... the number of folks opting for USB stick would be overwhelming. It’s easy, it’s also available to the masses.

It is the size of the data involved that also comes into play. As you know you can transfer MIDI Song data directly from the MONTAGE/MODX via the USB connection using MONTAGE CONNECT and MODX CONNECT. (That should meet your 21st century expectation). The instrument’s Song folder content can be dragged and dropped directly from the MONTAGE internal Folder to your computer via the program.

Please see the following: What is MONTAGE CONNECT?

MIDI transfer protocol is fine for data in the Kilobyte range, things like MIDI Songs. Performances are easily transferable by leaving out any audio data... but once you get into transferring the Waveforms and the Samples they manage, the sheer SIZE precludes any simple transfer protocol through the USB connection, like bulk dumping.

Foregoing Ethernet which had designs on not only establishing a network with your own computer, but to any computer your computer was networked with... it was a bit ahead of where most customers were in 2010..., the MONTAGE has the ability to store more data on board than previous models. The previous Motif XF had the ability to store 512 User programs in its custom internal Banks. The Montage stores 640 User programs in its custom Bank, times eight (Libraries). A MIDI “Song” recorded to the internal recorder is stored in internal ROM (you only need to export it as .mid Files if you need it transferable). And as mentioned, the contents of the SONG Folder is available via USB connection using the CONNECT application.

So the need for external USB stick storage is for your safety copies and to transfer data... if you use the available resources to house your custom data, there is less and less need to have tons of USB sticks. Of course, this all depends on how you utilize your tools. It would need to exist (as a storage/transfer method) regardless.

Direct writing to and from the computer? Been there, done that, got the t-shirt... the engineers seem well aware of the need for such communication. The current system has so much more onboard storage (once recognized and put to work, things are much easier).

To have just 16 Performances in a Library, once you become aware of Library assembly, seems like such an under use of the resources. Eventually, you recognize how to optimize onboard storage, and utilize CONNECT to store ‘works in progress’.

MONTAGE CONNECT
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Coming from Nord where I had every time to follow a laptop, I find it so convenient to just have my little dedicated usb stick !
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Not sure those ethernet apples match the USB oranges that were requested. Sure, there are bad user-unfriendly ways to do things and Ethernet would be one of those ways.

And MIDI-over-USB wasn't the request - it was full-bore USB 2.0 rates. High Speed USB (USB 2.0) at 480 Mbps, with standard file transfer endpoints is more than acceptable as this is what the USB sticks (on the "to device" side) use today.

I wouldn't mind having a discussion with push-back that makes sense. But citing MIDI over USB and Ethernet just doesn't help unless the goal is to provide a distraction. Then mission accomplished.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 5
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The question here was about moving files between the MONTAGE and computer — current situation is: you can move Song data between the MONTAGE and the computer. You can also move Performance programs between the MONTAGE and computer... perhaps you were unaware. Those using a computer for sequencing can have the DAW automatically capture the relevant data via the USB connection... that exists NOW!

You can start your own thread if you’d like and discuss it. You obviously weren’t one that attempted Ethernet successfully on the XF... which only makes my point! My answer to Michael points out that compared to the Ethernet/Router route, which was definitely too complicated for the majority of users (who have computers but are hardly power users outside of musical software) the method of saving to a USB stick is inexpensive and available to even those challenged by router configuration.

Ethernet a bad, User-unfriendly way? you’re a comedian as well. Since what I type now required me to setup a Ethernet connection, router, and several password protected items. That simple / that complex...

Yamaha has successfully implemented the Ethernet/Router scenario in several products as a method to communicate between the Yamaha device and home computer networks and Adhoc connections (Digital mixers and high-end Digital and Hybrid Piano devices use Ethernet/Router scenario and often, where a USB connection is used, a separate USB port is used to handle such things).

One would have thought the musicians who buy Synthesizers (although the data demands are very different) might have latched on to the Ethernet/Router scenario — particularly for networking with others for musical collaboration online.

Since, if I recall correctly, Michael, was one of the users who shares here on YamahaSynth that used that Ethernet connectivity, I’m more interested in what he has to say on this subject, than what you have to say (I’m afraid, no offense, but I hear “pie in the sky” requests all day long...).

Sure, those elite (rich) enough to not care what an item costs when it hits the market will fill IdeaScale with their own dreams about what should be included... and that’s okay, many times it can be done within the price limits (Hint: which is why it’s a good way to share such ideas). But starting your requests with “if price was no object...” might be a good practice, J. I’m just saying...

Digital mixers (even our entry level ones) feature this Ethernet/Router situation so the sound crew can have WiFi control over both FOH mixing, and onstage Monitor System Control... 2 iPads and as many as 8 iPhones can be on the network... (each musician can handle their own monitor mix from their phone)... it is not user-unfriendly; in fact, we hear the opposite! ... at least from the field feedback, it really depends on how big an issue it solves for the user as to whether it’s “worth it” to invest the effort. (At least that has been my finding... I wanted to hear from someone, a synth player, that used it successfully on XF, to find out if they have similar findings/conclusions. I found it useful on e setup and configured... but... compared to ‘shuttling’ large files from Synth to Computer with a usb stick

if an easier, more convenient way exists, synth players will gravitate to it. If it’s less expensive, too, well that’s a slam dunk! When it comes to moving data files, the SIZE of these “synth player” files that is the ONLY unfriendly thing in this equation. Smaller data that you generate is transferable via USB... even wirelessly. That’s why it is successful on some products, not on others. I’m looking for opinions from those who used it... their conclusions are of interest to me (as an individual)...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The request was to transfer all data using a USB cable in place of the USB stick. Even better using the existing USB cable connection from the Montage to PC to transfer all data.

While Im sure people are trying to be helpful, Im really annoyed at the responses which clearly evade the obvious valid requests here with lengthy explanations of what the Montage CAN do. The OP did not ask what Montage CAN do, he wanted something it CANNOT do. And then all the unnecessary explanation (Ethernet? mixers?? ipads??) It was clear from the beginning and the request is now muddied up.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 7
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I think Ideascale is a slight of hand trick not to be taken too seriously.
And I know that you are wrong.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
It's just left field to enter Ethernet into the fray as this is not what was requested in terms of simplicity, cost, retro-fit, etc. Sure, it's a historical proof point for how not to architect what's requested here. Point-to-point data transfer.

Your marketing data shows there was a barrier to adoption. Your own words from past discussions cites complexity as the leading theory of why the connect rate was so low. Not sure that qualifies for comedy.

I do understand, now, why you introduced Ethernet into the conversation. In order to poll the audience for more detail on why that failed. Maybe that would be a good reason for YOU to start your own thread.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
As one of the very few folks who successfully used the Ethernet connectivity implemented on the Motif XF, perhaps you are unaware of how few users were actually able to establish and run a network with their home computer and their XF. The implementation allowed you to read and write files to shared folders on your computer.

The fact that so few folks successfully adopted this workflow is probably the main reason you don’t see this implemented in the new synths (that and the SMB protocol became a source of problems on some operating systems). Reality was most folks couldn’t get past their own password protection. You used it (if I recall correctly) what did you think? How successful you were depended on your personal computer setup and your ability to troubleshoot networking with a router... (It was deep end of the pool stuff just to ante in)
Getting my Motif XF to network properly with my PC was, to put it mildly, a royal pain in the ass. It wasn't something I would recommend to any musician who wasn't also a software engineer like me. In hindsight, I wouldn't even recommend it to me.

One hurdle I had to get past was that my username/password combination was not being accepted. On my network, my username was "Michael Trigoboff". Note the space. After an inordinate number of hours spent hitting my head against the wall, it occurred to me that maybe the space was the problem. So just to see what would happen, I entered my username as "MichaelTrigoboff" (without the space). It worked! I had no idea why it worked or how it worked. See this thread.

And even once I got it working there were still problems.

But I'm not asking for network connectivity. I'm not looking to repeat my experience with my Motif XF. I would only be interested if it was somehow guaranteed to be straightforward and painless.

What prompted my original post was going through Manny's FM-Xpert lessons. I needed to download a zip file that contained a set of X7L library files so once again I had to pull the USB drive out of the Montage, plug it into the PC, move files onto it, move the USB drive back to the Montage, load files from it. Not a big deal, but an ongoing minor pain.

Given that my Montage and my PC are connected to each other with a USB cable, and given that data can definitely move both ways on that cable, it seems to me that it should be possible for the Montage to load and/or store X7L, X7U, X7A, etc files, perhaps via an enhanced version of Montage CONNECT. That's all I'm asking for.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I'm with you, Michael. Your original comment / request was simple and useful. I too, don't see why the 'USB to Host' cable can't carry all data so that the computer can become the back-up device if so desired. I can see the problem about hackers being able to steal intellectual property, but so far as I understand these matters (not far) the solution is to use a dedicated Montage computer not connected to the internet at all. KISS again.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 11
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