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  1. c
  2. Sherlock Holmes The Voice
  3. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  4. Sunday, 21 February 2021
Heres my question. When I use an Init Drum part and then apply my custom samples to the drum Parts BD SD HH Close HH Pedal HH Open Low Tom hi Tom Crash. By Default these are assigned to keys C1 D1 F#1 G#1 A#1 A1 D2 C#2 (not sure the reason).

How do I ensure that only those sounds will play when I start selecting the factory Montage arp drum patterns? Is it the fixed BD SD setting under Arpeggio settings?
Does it work in all cases or are the Montage arps designed to only go with certain kits and I end up with crazy sounds of the initialized SD Normal St 1-4 wav sample?

Also where should I assign additional samples on the other keys that can also be used with many arps? The genres I would be using are House, Techno, Chill, Ambient

How do I make kits that will work with a variety of the Montage drum arpeggio patterns?
Responses (12)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Well I have been working on this since I first posted. What a mess. I should just play patterns from my DAW. Then again why even bother loading my samples into the Montage if thats the case? I can use XO drums instead. So whats the point? Are we supposed to just use the factory preset drums with this thing and make a few changes here and there. I cannot believe working musicians would spend much time fiddling with this to get their songs going for their gigs.


Then once I did it I wanted to control the different notes in the kits volume using the 8 faders. Oops. Those faders are what is assigned to the 8 parts on notes for BD SD HH Close HH Pedal HH Open Low Tom hi Tom Crash. Too much forethought has to go into all this and it still might not work.

Please allow us to assign the 8 faders volume control for a drum part to whatever keys we want. The current note defaults mess everything up once we make our custom kit. Heres why:
If we are using DAW software to make kits there is no way we are going to customize midi files to match the current note setup C1 D1 F#1 G#1 A#1 A1 D2 C#2 in our midi files.
For example I use XO drums to generate midi files. It sends out notes C1-G1 for its midi notes. Im sure other software uses different methods.

better yet just rework the entire music making process in the very next firmware update. This thing is now messy

This thing needs to become standardized such as I always want my drum kits to play on a certain notes range, faders control it and arpeggios sync up. Let me put it in terms maybe Yamaha can understand. Suppose you wanted to play a Piano piece "Fur Elise" and every time you want to play it different notes came out of the piano and it now sounds like garbage. Well thats whats happening with Drums on this thing
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
If the DAW has something similar to the Drum Map feature in Cubase - then a map can be setup to change input drum key notes (from virtual or hardware drum sources) to different output notes. Drum map can deal with rechanneling too - although probably not needed here. You can stick with the native standard of MIDI notes in the plugins and have the drum map translate to any other hardware expectations. That's probably the easiest way to go since it's a setup once kind of deal and allows for using all other MIDI devices/plugins in their native/default setups.

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/using-cubase-drum-maps

Cubase AI has drum maps built in - so it's part of the "free" stuff everyone gets access to. I expect other DAWs would have something similar.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
THanks jason. I found a vst plugin where I can convert thw midi notes to other notes and did that. But of course this only solves the issue of using user aprs with user samples assigned to the drum parts which go with Montages Faders.

Once I did that I tried using the factory arps on my kit. Techno and House. And they all pretty much sound terrible. I tried Xstasyns as well terrible. There was no standardization in the development of all these moving parts. Shame. It feels like now the developers just expected everyone to use their presets. I am hoping Yamaha will chime in on this and reveal what was the mapping for all those arpeggios and why do they not line up with the 8 faders either?

Who has time to click every note on the keyboard to find out which sample is being triggered on an arp and then replace it one by one? and that may work for the arpeggio in question as soon as we switch it to another, our mappings are no good. Not mention the faders wont work on the kit in the end any way. Taking shortcuts leads to problems later.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
My commiserations.

This brings solace, as I went through a similar discovery process with the arps for drums and the kits etc... and couldn't find any underlying logic to the ways things were done... thought it was me failing to grok where and what that logic was...

It's a relief, of sorts, to know that I simply wasn't finding something that's not there.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
There are cases where this doesn't help - but for when you need 8 drum notes that are different standards - the drum map does the job. If really you're dealing with a drum source that has 8 notes but not C1-C#2 (the Montage/MODX/Yamaha way) then there wouldn't be any hunting really.

I can understand dealing with built-in ARPs if they go outside of those 8 notes. That's where some visualization would be nice. Like being able to look at a piano roll or keyboard with persistence and know what an ARP is doing on-board.

And, yeah, it'd be nice to be able to press shift+BD/SD/oHH/cHH/pHH/lTom/hTom/Crash and reassign the sliders to other drum keys.

For now - with the internal ARPs - either stick with the prescription kits they go with or play ARP notes (not triggers, but note the ARP plays) out MIDI and use the DAW to see what the ARP does. I've wished for a book of this stuff. There is some gap in terms of ease of use. It's not impossible - but maybe a heavy lift that lets the air out.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 5
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Heres my question. When I use an Init Drum part and then apply my custom samples to the drum Parts BD SD HH Close HH Pedal HH Open Low Tom hi Tom Crash. By Default these are assigned to keys C1 D1 F#1 G#1 A#1 A1 D2 C#2 (not sure the reason).
The reason would be that more than a majority of all Drum Arp’s use this or a similar mapping for the principal drum sounds. In fact, this is a universal standard mapping based on the Standard GM Drum Map.

How do I ensure that only those sounds will play when I start selecting the factory Montage arp drum patterns? Is it the fixed BD SD setting under Arpeggio settings?
The programmers were not specifically restricted to ONLY use certain notes. Once you get into Kit making it is fairly easy to move any Drum Waveform to any Key... and fashion your own Kits.

All Drum Kits are detailed in the Data List booklet. If you are HERE, make sure you have the Data List pdf handy.

Does it work in all cases or are the Montage arps designed to only go with certain kits and I end up with crazy sounds of the initialized SD Normal St 1-4 wav sample?
Probably not, but it will in the majority of cases.

Also where should I assign additional samples on the other keys that can also be used with many arps? The genres I would be using are House, Techno, Chill, Ambient
Sorry, I don’t understand the question.

How do I make kits that will work with a variety of the Montage drum arpeggio patterns?
Follow the standard GM mapping for the principal drums sounds.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thank you Bad Mister. I guess whoever decided the GM Drum standard should use certain keys instead of just straight C1-G1 or whatever is the one that started this mess. Why would they skip keys? My guess is it was setup in a way that they liked to play drums on the keyboard :D

I will be thoroughly testing this scenario out. Im thinking I have to choose specific samples that line up with the names for those 8 slots. DB SN and so forth.

BM - "The programmers were not specifically restricted to ONLY use certain notes. "

My question "How do I make kits that will work with a variety of the Montage drum arpeggio patterns?" meaning how do I make custom kits that will work with many of the Montage presets arpeggios and sound good?


My final thought is the whole process of creating user drums and arps is way too involved. I guess this is why I have seen professionals using an external drum machine or why I still gravitate towards using other drum plugins to make my beats.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 7
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I double checked and it seems a lot of the techno arps do not follow the 8 primary slots. Here are the other notes coming up so far. What type of drum should be placed on these notes as well? And its not even consistent between two adjacent arp patterns in the same genre.

Maybe if we had that knowledge we could make our kits to include those notes. Too bad they dont work with the faders - again showing that not enough care was applied when developing this.

F1
B1
C#2
D2
F2
A2
D3
A3
A#3
F3
F#3
G3
B3
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 8
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
My question "How do I make kits that will work with a variety of the Montage drum arpeggio patterns?" meaning how do I make custom kits that will work with many of the Montage presets arpeggios and sound good.
My answer “Follow the standard GM mapping for the principal drums sounds.”

See the Data List booklet...
__the two octaves between C1-B2 are the principal Drum Kit sounds — if you recall a House Kit, or an Ambient Kit, or a Techno Kit - the sounds that give this Kit its name will be found on the Notes (the ones you “don’t why” those notes).
__the two octaves between C3-B4 are your Latin Percussion sounds

When you look at the Kit maps you will see (and eventually) understand this mapping... works on the majority of commercially available drum patterns, and MIDI Files.

My guess is it was setup in a way that they liked to play drums on the keyboard :D
well, duh! :) Of course!
_ how would you have done it? How it looks is of no importance — it’s all about how it plays, n’est pas?

My final thoughts is the whole process of creating user drums and arps is way too complicated. I guess this is why I have seen professionals using an external drum machine or why I still gravitate towards using other drum plugins to make my beats.
Fair enough, if it is too complicated for you use whatever makes it easy for you. You get no extra points for struggling (lol).

However, you have not really got into using it quite yet.
If you had, you’d see how easy it is to move any Drum sound to any Key. Even between Kits.
I think you are overwhelmed by the sheer number of Drum Keys in a Kit (73), the number of Drum Arp Phrases and the number of Drum Waveforms.
Don’t worry, many folks get hung up on how to best utilize all the content you’re given.
If you are making your own Drum samples, then make your own Kits
But if you want to conform to the majority of data (not just contained in this keyboard, but MIDI data from other sources) use the standard GM mapping... at least “look it up”...

Are they all going to fit — heck no
Are the vast majority going to fit — yes!

If you ever want to get back at it and give it another try — let us know.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
OK can you please write up a new article addressing all these concerns? I still believe Yamaha developers should take a fresh look at the whole process and maybe create a few new features to force move stuff around or make it easier to import samples and midi files and place them appropriately. Or please have someone write an arpeggio manual detailing all the notes used for each arp. Maybe doing a report on this will reveal some sort of pattern (pun intended) to it all and refine the Montage further in development.

Im puzzled by this one "If you had, you’d see how easy it is to move any Drum sound to any Key. Even between Kits." I only know calling up a part and changin the wayform for a key using the Drum Key button. But its not as easy as you make it sound in this sentence.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Heres what I created. I will be testing further and probably updating this as I find some odd sounding stragglers in the arp presets as I run through them.
Im mostly concerned with the tonal nature of the sound rather than the exact sample used.
Hopefully this data helps others. The easiest solution so far is probably to never use the Drum Init to make a custom preset. Instead start with a Kit that has a lot of sounds you already like and replace the 8 primary slots with you own samples (the 8 primary slots come under fader control )
Attachments (1)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 11
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The easiest solution so far is probably to never use the Drum Init to make a custom preset. Instead start with a Kit that has a lot of sounds you already like and replace the 8 primary slots with you own samples (the 8 primary slots come under fader control )
Of course, what is easiest or best to do will vary depending on your individual goal.

When building a Drum Kit for distribution (so that it is useful to others...) you would start with the “Init Drum” template because you plan on replacing each of the 73 Key locations with a Waveform. Since the MONTAGE Drum Kit structure allows a great deal of Key-to-Key autonomy, it is useful for other things beyond your specific use case.

Example, individual Keys of a Kit can be used to play audio loops. Those who assemble their music by creating and triggering Audio Loops find an entirely different use for the Key arrangement. By setting Keys into “Alternate Groups” you can have it so triggering a Loop automatically replaces the Loop currently sounding from this Group.

There is a library of audio loops (each loop set is programmed at a specific tempo) different combinations of percussion instruments... you can create endless variation by holding down any combination of keys.

Entire musical sections can made as .Wav which you map to the Keys of a Drum Kit. The longest audio clip can be 6 minutes, 20 seconds at full fidelity.

When configuring the Drum Kit Part for Audio clip and Audio Loops, your approach to assembling the Kit is different from configuring it for traditional drum/percussion “one-shot” play.

When building a standard (traditional) Drum Kit, an 8-piece Kit seems ample for most typical drum grooves... one theory of operation that may help... kick, snare, a couple of toms, a crash cymbal, and three articulations of hihat. As you will discover, the majority of drum grooves available in MIDI format come in the GM map layout - including the two octaves of percussion. When configuring for a traditional drum kit, 8 is generous — sure you’d love to have 73 sliders (on paper) but in actual fact it is too many, and hardly necessary.

You can add to or subtract from what the Arp Phrase uses when it comes to sounds... often you’ll use just the kick and snare and record your own alternate sounds to enhance it (nobody uses the Arp data, as is, you’re supposed to fancy it up!)

Samples can be loaded directly to the Key of your Drum Kit.
You build the Waveform in the Kit you are working on... and it then becomes available for any Kit, anywhere.

How Arps are used is really only limited by your imagination. Example, often you may only want to ‘borrow’ a portion of an Arp... you can Note Limit the Part so that only the Kick and Snare are used, then you can record your own hihat on a separate track. Or vice versa, you may only wish to ‘borrow’ the Hihat from the Arpeggio. You may want to eliminate the Latin Percussion, or just borrow the Latin Percussion.

The Pattern Sequencer is designed to “transfer” the Arp to the Track as MIDI data
There are several Drum Track Construction Tools built-into the Pattern Sequencer — this include “Divide Drum Track”, and the “Play FX” Offsets.

The Data List also indicates which Drum Kit was used to create the different Drum Arp Phrases!
This doesn’t mean you can’t use another Kit but it might give you a better idea about what the original programmer was listening to when they programmed the Arp Phrase.

Extra Credit: Links—
MONTAGE: Divide Drum Track
Mastering MONTAGE: Pattern Play FX
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 12
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