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  1. Robert
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. Monday, 20 August 2018
Hi guys,

In my setup I have a Montage 8 and a Nord Electro 5 that I use for my organ sounds. Now, when I want to control te volume of the Nord via Footswitch 2, it is only working when I select the part (nr. 9) in my performance. What am I doing wrong? Must be a simple solution, but I just cannot find it...

Robert
Responses (31)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Jason, I am not quite following your line of thought here. You mean you would squeeze 7 parts into 2 with different velocity?
I cannot trigger more than two Montage parts at once with my external keyboard.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Sorry I've misled you a bit - I have not had my keyboard available to first-hand test this setup.

The assumption was that setting the advanced setting of MIDI = Single Channel would place PARTs 1-16 on the single channel assigned. This is not exactly the case. It's probably been spelled out somewhere, but I didn't internalize it since I'm late to the update game.

The way single-channel works goes against what I assumed. I'm not sure if this is good or bad - and maybe BM can re-clarify what "the deal" is.

When I set the keyboard to single-channel mode, I notice the rules for local keyboard control change. Even though the incoming MIDI channel I set to Ch 1 (single channel) - when I have my external controller sending MIDI data to Ch 1 - and PART 1's local keyboard control is OFF - AND PART 1 is selected - when I mash down on piano keys of the external keyboard, PART 1 does not respond.

My assumption was that since all the receive channels are set to CH 1 (single channel mode) - ANY channel with local keyboard control = OFF would only respond to external MIDI -- like it does in multi-channel mode. However, this isn't the case. That's why I went a step further and tried to match the PART with the external CH# to test local control=OFF with the external controller. This didn't make any sound.

Now the big downside of this is that it seems you completely lose PARTs 9-16 when you switch to single channel MIDI mode. That's quite a drag. I don't have the latest firmware installed (2.5) - I've got 2.0. Not sure if this is something that's changed or not - just a disclaimer on my testing.

My external keyboard is capable of transmitting on 8 simultaneous channels (limited to MIDI channel 1-8 - cannot send to channel 9-16). All 8 channels can send at the same time. This keyboard would be fine for controlling Seattle Sections on PARTs 1-7 - but this would present a problem since I cannot locally drive channels 9-16 simultaneously for the piano. This is a tangent since it's not your configuration - but presents another variation on theme of limitations causing issue.

I hope there's something I missed here with the configuration. That single mode only allows PARTs 1-8 to be externally controlled seems very limiting. Parts 9-16 were always touted (before single-channel mode) as the external channels. Giving you the ability for 16-channels at a time if you had an external keyboard that could output simultaneous to channels 9-16. It seems single-channel MIDI mode only allows for 8 simultaneous PARTs (PARTs 1-8 locally or externally). PARTs 9-16 seem only accessible when selected and when the local keyboard is used -- so this only allows for one PART at a time if trying to add anything out of PARTs 9-16. Bummer. Someone dig me out.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 2
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Sorry it took so long to get back to you... out at the Yamaha home office sitting in meetings... flying home now so have some time (if memory serves me correctly I can provide some options).


Have you completely given up on the Toto tune setup? At some point come back around to that because it sounds very solveable, and since you’ve already looked into it, this seemed like a good teachable moment, but moving on...

Discussing things from MONTAGE point of view, layering a complex Multi Part acoustic Piano with a complex Multi Part String sound already layering more than nine Parts... (To make a comparison your Motif XF ...which allowed Receive Channel manipulation...here you can deal with it differently...

Okay anyway, let’s begin. “Seattle Sections” is a 7-Part Performance. But as is the case with most programmed instruments using multiple Part slots, they are NOT your simple thickness-building multiple sounds... not all Parts are set to respond simultaneously (as would be the case in a typical Receive Channel layer situation). Analyze what about this Performance you are going to use...
Part 1 is the first violins
Part 2 is the second violins
Part 3 is the violas
Part 4 is the cello section
Part 5 is the contrabasses
It is likely you are not using Part 6 (special articulation)
And if you don’t need a solo cello, solo viola and solo violin, you probably aren’t using the Part 7 either. (An example of how MONTAGE accomplishes three lead sounds in a single Part, by the way... study Part 7 when thinking about the Africa setup... it is an example of how you can have multiple lead sounds on a single channel!)

Suggestion: select a sound that works for you (not one that has extra items you may not be using)... or edit the sound to strictly fit your needs.
Look for a sound where the programmers used the same or similar layout using less Parts. Or be adventurous, and edit it yourself (recommended) - you can “Delete” Parts you find you are not triggering in the case of the particular song.

Example, the “CFX Concert” appears as 4-Part, 18 Element Program.
It also appears as “CFX Stage”, the same acoustic piano in a single Part, 8 Element Program.

The former designed for solo piano use, the later for combining with other sounds or playing in an ensemble.
The concept being... there are many more velocity layers in the ‘Concert’ version than in the ‘Stage’ version. They are clearly the same piano, but why have all those layers if you're unable to hear the subtle difference because it is hidden in the ensemble play?

The additional velocity layers are better appreciated (heard) when playing the Concert version as a solo piano. (The velocity switches in the soft strike - medium strike area are best heard in solo or ballad play) if you piano Performance is always in the 70-127 velocity range you’re wasting Part slots, if you follow me. Unless you are using those very soft (ppp - pp - p - mp strikes why have them occupying a Part? Use the Single Part version of the sound, it’s more efficient for combining!

Orchestral sounds come in large Multi Part setups and others where there are less Parts; less Parts are often more suitable for creating complex setups. Starting with complex setups and then NOT using the full extent of the complexity should be something you want to avoid.

Now, I know you are talking about one of the Bosendorfer acoustic pianos... I’m not at my instrument now, and you don’t mention how many Parts it is, but do an analysis and see what about it you are using.

If the Seattle Sections is to be triggered by your two Zone external controller, it is unfit to play all 5 sections of the “Seattle Sections” while in MIDI I/O Mode = Multi... that does not change, therefore you have these options:
1. Find a String Orchestra sound that gets the same sonic result as “Seattle Sections” with less Parts (as the “CFX Stage” does for the “CFX Concert”) as outlined above you can probably Delete Parts 6 and 7, making room for your Multi Part acoustic Piano
2. Set the MONTAGE to MIDI I/O = Single, and trigger the Multi Part Strings from the external controller. Set the Parts you want to play from the external controller to KBD CTRL
3. Depending on what sounds you need simultaneously (which is a key issue in setting up your own configurations), you can also place the Acoustic Piano of choice under KBD CTRL and use MONTAGE’s ability to morph/switch from one set of sounds to the other. The Bosendorfer are either 2 or 3 Parts if I recall, so a 5 Part String and 3 Part Piano, all under KBD CTRL... what instrument is sounding can be determined by Super Knob position. Super Knob position can be moved manually, recalled with a Scene, morphed with an FC7 pedal...

While setting up the XF you know how to do, on the MONTAGE you have principally a very programmable Synth that begs you to program / customize each Performance for your own requirements. If you can provide info on what you need to play simultaneously we can offer further methods to accomplish the goal.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
My point exactly. If single mode MIDI would assign the same MIDI channel to all 16 parts, that would make sense to me and my problem would be solved. I cannot think of another way to do this?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 4
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
We must have been posting simultaneously...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 5
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
When I looked at Seattle Sections, I wasn't sure how you used it. The 7th PART is for small section ("solo" ) sounds - not sure if you rotate superknob full clockwise ever for that sound. If so, you may be able to replicate it (sort of) by instead turning up one of the other PARTs and turning down the rest. Ok - PART 7 zapped (maybe). PART 6 is special articulations. Pizz and such. Maybe you use those - maybe you don't. It's quite a hassle - but you could hand copy those over to PART 5. PART 5 mostly shares the same effects and so forth. It has the same key span (note limits). There's other things to check. But maybe that can get squished. This gives you 3 spots to take the Imperial Grand to slide into PARTs 6, 7, and the always empty 8.

I didn't load the Imperial Grand to check how many PARTs it takes. I just saw a video online that showed 3 Parts (and a webpage that also said as much) -- so I'm assuming you're looking at a 3 PART piano.

This is the same general feedback BM gave. Depending on what you're trying to do - there may not be a need to shave off velocity layers from the piano.

I guess I can go look at Toto or something if that helps anything - but I gather that Single Channel "locks out" any useful use of 9-16 - which is a frowny face.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I've been trying a lot of your tips and I found some workarounds to get what I want. My Toto performance works, playing just my Montage with the already programmed scenes. Scenes are a great feature, by the way.

Today I spent some time on the different MIDI modes in my Montage. Seems to me I have three options:

- Single mode without Zones: gives me the same receiving channel on Montage. But you miss the 'zones' setting that is crucial for making multi part performances.
- Multi mode which receives a midi channel per part. Part 1 = channel 1, Part 2 = channel 2 and so on. In this mode, I can only trigger 2 parts maximum from my Nord (so forget multiple part performances like the Bosendorfer)
- Single mode with zones. This would be the right mode for me. There is one drawback: all parts have their own receiving MIDI channel again. So I keep the problem that I can only trigger 2 parts from my Nord, no matter what my performance settings are.

2. Set the MONTAGE to MIDI I/O = Single, and trigger the Multi Part Strings from the external controller. Set the Parts you want to play from the external controller to KBD CTRL


So when I do this with the Bosendorfer I can play part 1 and 2, not part three. (in single mode with Zones)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 7
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Actually, why does Single mode with our without the use of Zones change the way part receive MIDI? I mean, receiving on 16 different MIDI channels is what multi mode is for? Single mode with zones receiving on just one midi channel would make more sense to me.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Use of zones defeats single channel mode. It's just one of those things. At least that part isn't much of a mystery to me due to having internalized that from the discussions and documentation.

Source: https://www.yamahasynth.com/montage-category/montage-midi-zone-master-faq

CAN'T I SIMPLY SET THE MONTAGE MIDI I/O MODE = SINGLE AND USE THE ZONE MASTER FOR EXTERNAL?
==========================================================================================
Yes - but not at the same time. When Zone Master is enabled in UTILITY and the current Performance has Zone Switches set to On, this setting overrides the MIDI I/O Mode "Single" setting. Activating the Zone Switch within a Performance (Zone enabled) automatically changes the status to address multiple devices. Whatever is setup in the currently selected Performance will determine what gets transmitted OUT via MIDI and on what channels that data will travel on.

Additionally, note that in MIDI I/O mode Multi, the Arps can be set to send their MIDI data Out externally, in I/O mode Single only the keys you physical press are transmitted Out via MIDI. The Arpeggiators do not Output their data via MIDI when I/O Mode Single is selected.


A while back, I was hoping that "defeating" meant just for the channel that zone is turned on for -- so I could keep a range of channels assigned to a single channel - then selectively opt-out some select channels using zones. This is not the case. Use of zones will turn off single-channel mode entirely. Meaning, it flips the setting (internally) back to multi-channel mode.

For the "why" - you have to abstract what is easy to explain/logical apart from the reality of what is inside Montage - a bunch of hardware and software arranged in a certain configuration. With complex systems, sometimes the architecture "paints itself in a corner" - making it difficult / impossible to accomplish things that seem simple/obvious.

I speculate it has something to do with re-configuring the control matrix depending on the receive MIDI channel (single vs. multi). And some hybrid would break the model. But that's a wild guess.

The "best" move Yamaha has to deal with this is to explain the virtue of the current limited setup. Even describe it as not being limited. If something is not going to change - you have to make due and message the virtues.

I don't really have concrete answers of the "why". I'm not sure we'll get at that. Hopefully there's a skunkwork project to try to pull a rabbit out. I am, however, not counting on this.

Given this, it is best to follow the advice given earlier - to focus more on what you can do rather what you cannot (at least in operation of the keyboard). As creative workarounds including additional hardware/software purchase/pieces or unique configuration is what is called for in the here-and-now.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
My Montage is the 'center' of my MIDI setup. I think for many keyboard players this is the way they use Montage. Given the experience I have with my Motif I never even considered other brands when I looked for new gear. Would I have known this shortcoming beforehand, I would have definitely considered a Korg Kronos.

Anyway, like you say, the only possibility now is to focus on what can be done. Thanks for your tips Jason and BadMister.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I am also still hoping that Yamaha will fix this shortcoming.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 11
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