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  1. Robert
  2. MONTAGE
  3. Monday, 20 August 2018
Hi guys,

In my setup I have a Montage 8 and a Nord Electro 5 that I use for my organ sounds. Now, when I want to control te volume of the Nord via Footswitch 2, it is only working when I select the part (nr. 9) in my performance. What am I doing wrong? Must be a simple solution, but I just cannot find it...

Robert
Responses (31)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Have you tried zones? Not sure if that is the best solution, but I just tried zones out for the first time this weekend and I wonder why I never used it b4...., you can control part by part exactly what you want to have happen on your external keyboard.

Reading about Zones on this site Friday and then using it this weekend with my MO6.... totally opened up my workflows when not using a laptop and cubase. Both the Performance and Pattern modes can be easily leveraged. Having the Drums Patterns A-H available and then any of the 1-16 voices in the MO6 mix avail to part on top of the Montage is just amazing. I know you have a Nord as a 2nd, but I had so much fun hooking up the MO6 again. Putting the MO6 away to really learn the Montage and lil cubase was great, pulling the MO6 out of the case to work with the DAW and now Montage Zones, is even better.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 1
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
From the article “Zone Master FAQ”

When would I choose to use the Zone Master function?

You would use the Zone Master function any time you are connecting via standard 5-pin MIDI OUT to other synthesizers or MIDI modules, and you wish to control and manage them from your MONTAGE. In short, when using the MONTAGE as your Master Keyboard Controller via MIDI.

Like most any modern keyboard, the MONTAGE transmits Out via MIDI what you play on the keys. You usually do not have to do anything, most Keyboards naturally default to transmitting what you are playing OUT via MIDI. What may be new for you is MONTAGE‘s ability to transmit, naturally, on more than one MIDI channel simultaneously. Some of the PARTs might contain Arpeggiators (there are 8 of them available for simultaneous use), some of the PARTs might be following Motion Sequences (there are a possible 8 Lanes of them available for simultaneous use); you can understand why drum, and other arpeggiated note and controller data needs to be kept on separate channels. In order for that data to captured and returned to the MONTAGE, separate channels makes perfect sense. The MONTAGE can have as many as eight KBD CTRL (Keyboard Control) Parts at once. This is so that you can capture in detail what you perform on MONTAGE... however, sending all of that to your slave MIDI device, not being a MONTAGE, this might be a bit confusing for it.... therefore, in a situation where you are trying to control an external synth or module, you have the ZONE MASTER function. It's purpose: to intelligently control what goes Out via MIDI when you are connected to an external MIDI device.

—————————————————-

You mention ”Footswitch 2” - do you mean “Assignable Foot Switch” or do you mean “Foot Controller 2”... There is no “Footswitch 2”

Related Articles:
MONTAGE MIDI: Zone Master FAQ

MONTAGE MIDI: Zone Master and MIDI I/O Modes
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thans for your replies, it is working now.
But how does it work the other way around? I would like to play several parts on the Montage via the Nord keyboard. Where can I change the 'receive' MIDI channel on the Montage to the channel that the Nord is transmitting?
Thanks in advance for your answer!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 3
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Here’s how:

Press [UTILITY]
Touch “Settings”
Touch “Advanced”
Set the MIDI I/O Mode = Single
Select a single MIDI Channel, 1-16, on which to trigger the MONTAGE

This will allow you to play the MONTAGE from the External keyboard, and get the same response from MONTAGE you would if you were playing the MONTAGE Keys.

ALTERNATIVE
You can use the External Keyboard to trigger just one internal Part. When your Montage is in MIDI I/O Mode = Multi, each Part Transmits and receives on the Channel number equivalent to the Part number. For example, if your External Keyboard was set to transmit on MIDI Channel 16, it would trigger a MONTAGE Part placed in the 16th slot.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Bad Mister,

Thanks for your answer. But what if I don't want to play the whole Montage, but just some parts? In my Motif I could choose a number of parts to play from an external keyboard, and others on the Motif keyboard. For instance, I had some string sections (3 parts, slightly different sounds) played from my external keyboard, while having my Motif piano on the Motif keyboard.
How can I do that?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 5
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
No. Your Motif was built around an integrated Sequencer... you transmitted via a Track of the Sequencer to the Tone Generator; more than one Part could be set to receive via a Track. The MONTAGE is not a Motif (thus the name change). The similarities in the AWM2 engine not withstanding, the rest of MONTAGE is new/different/unique.

Please see the linked articles.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Wow that is a real disappointment....:( For a master keyboard I would say that that is an essential feature...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 7
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
You don’t mean “master keyboard”, the MONTAGE Transmits on eight simultaneous zones and makes a masterful master keyboard. What are you referring to? Using it as a slave module? In that regard it features 32 Outputs via USB. We strongly feel that is where you can get the biggest multitimbral use out of the MONTAGE, via no compromise instrument sounds, recorded to unlimited Track of your favorite Digital Audio Workstation. By no compromise we are referring to building each sound you choose to use so that it behaves/performs for the player.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I think my Montage, like my Motif is a great instrument. But what I mean is that I like to have my piano sounds ready at all times to play on the Montage keyboard. If I can play several Montage parts from the Nord keyboard simultaneously, that is a great advantage and for me that is making maximum use of the great Montage sounds. It's nothing special, it was always there in the Motif; it's just adding an extra keyboard to trigger all that is in my Montage.
I think it is strange that the Montage does not have that feature. But searching the internet I found out that I am not the only one with this opinion.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 9
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
You are certainly not the only one, perhaps, confused/perplexed by this layout. But that just means that you haven't found a workaround on this new system, and applying the "old workaround" no longer works. The integrated Sequencer-in-the-synth method (Motif-series) was designed so that the Keyboard transmits to the Tone Generator via a Track. Each Track can be set to transmit any MIDI channel. You obviously are a longtime MIDI user so this is not news. In a system like that a synth with 16 Parts could support 16 Tracks, one for each MIDI Channel at max, but you could setup so that you layered sounds by putting them on the same Receive Channel... there was no limit to how many Parts could be set to receive from that one track.

The Keyboard only transmitted on one channel at a time, the Track of the Sequencer would channelize the data... the Tone Generator Part could be matched to the Track's channel.

You could use this paradigm to layer sounds for live play, because the system allowed you to both set the Transmit channel of each Track and to set the Receive channel of each Part. So if you wanted to layer Piano and Strings, by selecting Track 1 and setting it to output data on MIDI Channel 1, you could set Part 1 to Receive on Ch1 and Part 2 to Receive on Ch1. This, quite naturally, let's both the Piano and String Part to do the same thing at the same time to the same MIDI data. So this works for both recording/playback and live play.

The MONTAGE as a fundamental approach is not constructed around this integrated Sequencer... it uses multiple transmit channels as multiple lanes of communication between the keyboardist and the synth engine, with the ultimate goal being increased communication and nuance in control. You'll be seeing more of this in the future, as performing expressiveness becomes the (new) ultimate goal. You can layer multiple Parts on the MONTAGE so that they all do the same thing at the same time to the same data, but it is the very least you can do in programming MONTAGE. Layering is easy, it is done by activating the green KBD CTRL icon on any of the first eight Parts. Each icon represents the ability to transmit on the correspondingly numbered channel, 1-8.
By placing each Part on a separate channel we can use Channel messages and direct Parameter messages to increase expressivity.

To create a Piano and String layer on the MONTAGE, you could do so by instead of setting Receive channels, you simply set the Controlling instrument (keyboard) to Transmit on two channels.

But what I mean is that I like to have my piano sounds ready at all times to play on the Montage keyboard. If I can play several Montage parts from the Nord keyboard simultaneously, that is a great advantage and for me that is making maximum use of the great Montage sounds.
The perfect solution for you is a dedicated piano keyboard (making your piano sound always accessible). An alternate solution would be an external keyboard capable of transmitting on multiple Channels simultaneously.

The MONTAGE paradigm is uses a channel differently.

You can accomplish your requirement by setting MONTAGE MIDI I/O Mode = Single; Select Ch 1; Set the MIDI Channel of your external controller, Channel 1. Now your external controller can fully perform any MONTAGE Performance sounds. Those Parts designated "KBD CTRL" (Keyboard Control) will play in response to your external controller, you will be able to play/perform any of the Performances and simultaneously trigger all Parts that have the "KBD CTRL" active (green).

All other Parts (non-KBD CTRL) behave exactly like playing a Part in a Motif XF Mixing setup. Place your MONTAGE Piano in any non-KBD CTRL Part. To play that piano simply press its [PART SELECT] button. When you play on the external keys you'll hear the multiPart MONTAGE sounds, simultaneously you can play the MONTAGE Piano Part. Yes, simultaneously.

The MONTAGE keyboard will not play the KBD CTRL Parts, because you have directly selected a non-KBD CTRL Part. You external controller will play the KBD CTRL Parts because it is transmitting in on Ch1.

Final Thoughts:
A Keyboard controller that does four or eight Zones (like Yamaha Motif and MO-series synths have been doing for almost two decades now), should be a norm... even the Yamaha CP Stage pianos transmit via a four Zone Master Keyboard function. The growth of MIDI's future is in multiple channel Transmit... you can see it coming in new types of controllers. If the industry is looking to grow, they are going to have to move beyond just Keyboard players... for guitars, basses, violins, cellos, etc., to do MIDI properly a Channel per String is required. It's the future - ready or not. IMHO

(Some) People hate to hear it, but most complaints are non-issues if/when your controller is a multi-MIDI Channel Controller (meaning it can transmit on multiple channels simultaneously). I do not know the capabilities of the external keyboard you mentioned but if it did transmit on multiple channels there would be no issue.

In order to break old conventions, the old workarounds may not work. Your specific case has a solution (and perhaps, while not the perfect solution) we can recommend... don't buy a Keyboard controller device if it only transmits MIDI on a single channel (going forward, list multiple zone transmit as something you require) to go forward without this is going to be frustrating.

If you have a MONTAGE try what I've outlined. It may work for you. If you only listen to people who only know how to layer by matching Receive Channels because that’s how they’ve always done it, you'll hear nothing but "you can't..."

Hope that helps.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Bad Mister,

Thanks for your extensive and clear answer.

I only use my Montage in a live setup. I think that is where this problem arises. The Montage is my base instrument. Great keyboard to play (88 keys), great sounds and all MIDI possibilities.
My Nord is my organ, nothing more. Many musicians have similar setups I presume. Yes, if you consider my Nord to be a MIDI controller, it would need to send out multiple MIDI channels. But it just doesn't. At least, luckily I found out my Nord can send 2 MIDI channels simultaniously, so that resolves a big part of my problem.

The solution you describe only partly works for me. Let me give you an example:
I downloaded the Narf 'Africa' performance. The logical setup for me would be: brass and kalimba on my lower (Montage) keyboard; solo (3 different parts, two splits) on my upper (Nord) keyboard. That way, I would never have to change performances during the song.
With my Motif that would not have been a problem. On the Montage, correct me if I am wrong (I hope so ;) ), that is impossible.
I guess I will have to get used to play with different scenes.

Other than that: love the sounds and possibilities of my Montage. Need to study a lot more to explore all possibilities...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 11
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Flexibility is limited with the current setup, so you have to get creative.

The current mantra is either you're deficient for being stuck in old paradigms or your keyboards are stuck in an old paradigm. Unfortunately, it's the reality of quality/pro gear you can purchase with today's money on today's market. Not everyone is going to get a Kurzweil or Kronos which can both send AND receive on any channel (sounds can be programmed to receive on any arbitrary channel like has been requested as one solution to your predicament). Either one of these could configure the transmit channels to integrate with Montage. Other gear (Roland, Nord, etc) is generally more limited in MIDI sends (zones) - although Roland probably,on average, has a higher count depending on the model. There's a ton of other manufacturers of boards and controllers. Your fault for picking the wrong one or wanting to do something that's too "bleeding edge".

Some things you can do ...

1) Put something between Montage and the Nord to rechannelize the MIDI data (computer+plugin, dedicated hardware box that can do this, etc)
2) Configure around this - maybe use velocity. If your solo instruments do not need velocity variation, maybe you make your Nord send only very high velocity (127) then limit your Montage to use only lower velocities (1-126). Set Montage to single-channel mode. This way your nord would not trigger the channels you want to play locally with your montage keyboard due to the velocity limits you put in place. Some "Mega" Performances may not work well with this. You have to make sure local ARPs do not hit the higher velocity. There's a decent amount of work to get this going. This one deals with layering fine.
3) Use the keyboard control trick which allows you to locally only play one PART at a time. This would lock out any other sounds other than the selected sound. You can select the external PARTs too so only one plays at a time. Not great if you want any layering. Also would have you set the keyboard in single-channel mode.
4) Try to "squish" any layered sounds into a single PART. So, if you can do it, you have elements from both sounds in elements 1-8 of the PART. If you needed to play one sound at a time - then use assignable switches (A.SW1,2). This would leave the keyboard in multi-mode. Only one of the PARTs would be for the external keyboard. Or perhaps two if your keyboard does two channels worth of a split - as you mentioned.

There's likely more you can do.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 12
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks for your reply Jason.
I am already experimenting with the solutions you suggest. To a certain level that works. But the solutions you and BM suggest will never give me the flexibility I had with my XF, and I am sure you agree with me.

Not everyone is going to get a Kurzweil or Kronos which can both send AND receive on any channel (sounds can be programmed to receive on any arbitrary channel like has been requested as one solution to your predicament)


My point exactly and more than true. But shouldn't Montage be in this list? For me it is.

Any chance of a firmware update in the future that will add a knob to parts that says: 'MIDI receive channel'?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 13
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
The request to modify each PART's MIDI receive channel is a long-standing request. Chances are low - although it's one of the "top 10" requests from very early of Montage in customers' hands.

I don't know what Montage should or should not do. That's too heavy handed for me. All I can do is point out that Montage is at a competitive disadvantage with respect to this feature as well as illustrate (as others have) specific examples where such flexibility would fulfill useful configuration goals that cannot be obtained no matter how well versed you are at using the equipment without having to insert a "shim" between (extra hardware or hardware+software meaning a computer of some sort).

If my gigs depended on external gear (they don't) - I would probably have purchased or built a self-contained hardware solution to re-channel my external gear. The downside would be another thing to break/carry and the expense. However, it'd be solved with perhaps its own set of limitations if the configuration could not change as it sensed different MSB/LSB/PCs coming down the wire.

If you're OK with a computer - that can work. There are free plugins out there (public domain / freeware) that allow for re-routing MIDI traffic over different channels. Personally, I will not gig with a computer at this time.

Hope something will work out. Everything presented has some form of trade-off (including solutions in past responses here and elsewhere from Yamaha on this subject).

There's probably something core to the architecture that makes adding the requested flexibility too difficult for Yamaha engineering to implement without causing a landslide of unmanageable issues.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 14
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I have been programming for a couple of days now. Jason's and BM's tips work, but what a limitation it remains. I think I wil hold on to my Motif just a little while longer... In terms of live perfomance this receive MIDI channel issue is a huge setback. Dissapointing.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 15
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
It appears to be a limitation until you can program the situation that you need. If you give us some specifics I think we can get you a setup that not only works but gives you more options. Granted you eventually learned to set up what you require on the Motif XF, but programming the MONTAGE is indeed different from that.

This is basically a problem that only some musicians have... again if your External controller transmitted on more channels, I think you realize, you’d have no problem accomplishing what you need to do. For example, a controller that transmitted on four or eight Zones (as most Yamaha synths and pro Stage Pianos have been doing for the last two decades), it wouldn’t be a problem.

It all kind of depends on which sounds you need access to simultaneously. For example, you could morph (via the Super Knob) from a Brass / Kalimba Setup to one that was three sounds regions across the keyboard all in one Performance. We simply don’t have enough details on what you are trying to accomplish (or why)... and what are the limitations of your external controller. If you’d like to pursue this let us know. We’d be happy to help you get there.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 16
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks for your answer BM. My Nord can send 2 midi channels simultaniously so that solves (a big) part of my problem. I know that if my Nord could send out more channels than that, my problem would be solved.

But for example, when I started exploring Montage sounds, I found 2 outstanding (and complex) perfomances: the Bosenfdorfer Imperial piano and the Seattle sections strings. They both have multiple parts.
I tried to program the strings for playing on my Nord keyboard, the piano on my Montage. I haven't found a solution to do that. My limit is a 2 layer performance if I want to play it from the Nord keyboard.
I cannot add another performance/part such as a certain drum sound (a clap for example). I can, but I have to play it on the Montage keyboard, not the Nord.
I combined some performances by copying elements. That works. But it's not always possible.
If you could provide me with a workaround, I would be very happy...
Rehearsed with my band yesterday; the Montage just stands out more than de Motif... I would like to have the best of both.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 17
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
For the scenario presented, let me see if I echo back what you're trying to do:

1) Multi-Part performance (Bosendorfer) played locally on Montage with Montage's piano keys
2) Multi-Part performance (Seattle Sections) played remotely with external Nord keyboard.

I don't have my keyboard setup now, but levering my spreadsheet ( http://docdro.id/0cf7fej ) I see that Seattle Sections (Performance #321) uses 7 PARTs.

I'd have to setup my keyboard to check. I know Int SW can keep the tone generator from sounding for forcing external control. Keyboard Control for preventing local piano keys (as long as the PART is not selected) from triggering any sound. However, I'm not aware of a way to filter external MIDI note on/off messages when the MIDI channel matches. Part of the solution sees to be to place the keyboard in single-channel MIDI mode so the external keyboard can address the 7 parts of Seattle sections at once. Presumably, you would place these in PARTs 9-15 since you would not want your local keyboard to trigger these sounds. However, off-the-cuff, I'm thinking that your external keyboard would also trigger the piano (PARTs 1-x) as the MIDI channel would match the string PARTs while in single-channel mode. I can't think of of an "ignore external note on/off messages" switch that activates on a PART-by-PART level.

The 7 PARTs of Seattle sections is a lot to cover with an external keyboard - even many Yamaha controllers which have 4 zone support. Maybe you've tried to squeeze Seattle Sections - it would be quite an undertaking - and have tradeoffs with how the modulation control worked as well as issues with effects and other things you give up by "compressing". This would not be my personal first go-to step for Seattle Sections.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 18
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
For the scenario presented, let me see if I echo back what you're trying to do:

1) Multi-Part performance (Bosendorfer) played locally on Montage with Montage's piano keys
2) Multi-Part performance (Seattle Sections) played remotely with external Nord keyboard.


That is correct. But no matter where I put the Seattle Sections, parts 1-7 or parts 9-15: My Nord will only adress 2 of the parts, being the two Midi channels I can send.
In this particular case, squeezing several parts into one or two seems impossible to me.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 19
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
First, set your Montage to single-channel MIDI mode. If you can live with no velocity variation -- this is a time when I wish velocity was a parameter you could offset with say the FC pedal - but there's not a velocity related destination. At any rate - you could make the strings only respond to a velocity of 127 and then adjust - inside the PART - what the actual single velocity response will be (triggering whichever set of samples would at that velocity -- it doesn't have to be 127 -- the curves can be adjusted vs. the input velocity) - and set your piano PARTs to stop responding to 127 by setting the maximum to 126.

You lose expressiveness in terms of velocity variation - but you can still deal with volume using a pedal. So your strings will be perhaps mellotron-ish.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 20
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