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  1. Gabi
  2. Sherlock Holmes The Voice
  3. MONTAGE
  4. Sunday, 23 September 2018
hi, I´m jamming with "ArpFilteredSynth" and recorded directly on the Montage but it does not record the autoknob movements and I cannot figure out why not. What could this be?
Responses (12)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Not sure this would be it - but what CC is your Superknob set to? "OFF" = use SysEx. Superknob didn't use to use CC at all and was all SysEx - I'm pretty sure the recorder records SysEx as well. Just something to check and not a very solid theory.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 1
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
hi, I´m jamming with "ArpFilteredSynth" and recorded directly on the Montage but it does not record the autoknob movements and I cannot figure out why not. What could this be?
What it could be is that, if there is both an Arpeggio On and there is a Motion Sequence that is Sync’ing to “Arp”, once you record the Arp data as events there is no Arp data for the Motion Sequence to follow...

Once you have recorded the Arpeggio data as actual Note-on events, there is no Arp data generated on playback, so the Motion Sequence will not advance. That would explain why there is no AutoKnob movement.

If you wish to record and have the MONTAGE Performance Recorder to recreate your performing (jamming) proceed as follows:
Recall “ArpFilteredSynth”
Press the [RECORD] button to initiate a NEW SONG
On the screen that appears, select “ARP REC” = Off

This will allow the Performance Recorder to document exactly what you play, (and not the output of the Arpeggiators). This way when you playback, the exact key presses made, as you made them, will be played back to the Tone Generator.... they will trigger the Arpeggiators involved, which in turn will trigger the Motion Sequence (Auto Knob).

The parameter ARP REC = OFF should be used when the Motion Sequencer is sync’d to the Arp. If your Auto Knob/Motion Sequence movement is set to “Sync = Arp”... it is waiting for data from the Arpeggiator in order to advance.

Thanks for the question.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Are you using Ableton Live?
You have to activate "Remote" for Montage-1 in the Midi Settings, otherwise Live will not record any automation data from the Montage.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 3
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
@ axel
Gabe: “hi, I´m jamming with "ArpFilteredSynth" and recorded directly on the Montage...”

Seems OP is recording directly to the Performance Recorder.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
@ axel
Gabe: “hi, I´m jamming with "ArpFilteredSynth" and recorded directly on the Montage...”

Seems OP is recording directly to the Performance Recorder.


Ah, ok, sorry!!!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 5
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
yes that´s right, turning off arp rec works, but why? why doesn´t the recorder record both arps and motion sequences?
but beyond that, this particular performance "ArpFilteredSynth" just does not sound right when recorded with midi (in cubase). I cannot exactly describe the problem, but the recording is just different from what I played and jumpy and off. the only way to make this one sound on cue and right is to record the arp that has the autoknob motion sequence in it as an audio track (in cubase)...don´t ask me why, I have no idea....
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Who's the clock master?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 7
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Cubase is the clock master.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 8
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
It doesn't have anything to do with Master clock! In your original post you said "I´m jamming with "ArpFilteredSynth" and recorded directly on the Montage"

Once you have recorded the Arpeggio data as actual Note-on events, there is no Arp data generated on playback, so the Motion Sequence will not advance. That would explain why there is no AutoKnob movement.
MS_SyncArp.png
The MOTION SEQUENCE is Sync'd to the Arpeggio data.

The act of recording the Arpeggio data converts that data to MIDI Events; that data is no longer an Arpeggio, it is now MIDI Note-on events in the Track.

The Motion Sequence is set Sync = ARP... that's why! It is awaiting the trigger notes for the Arpeggio to start. No trigger notes, no Arp, no Motion Sequence movement.

Extra Credit:
Arp phrases can be set to start when a Key is pressed; you can Note Limit the range of those notes that will trigger the start of the phrase; you can also Velocity Limit the region that will trigger the start of the Arp phrase. It could be a single Key, for example... additionally, a Motion Sequence can be set to start when the Arp phrase is triggered.

Both Arps and MSeqs can be set to Loop, or play once. This opens up an unlimited set of possibilities... why this is cool, is you can trigger an Arp phrase (Notes) on “cue”, if the Motion Sequence (parameter changes) is set Sync = Arp, it will coincide with start of the Arp phrase... this means you can apply automated parameter changes to the Arp phrase whenever you choose to trigger it.

Say you set the Arp to play a difficult run, perhaps you want it to double a line you’re playing with a different sound, or a big horn riff backing that you trigger ”on cue”, or whatever. When you trigger it to play, you can have an automated set of parameter changes that are applied to that phrase. These could pan it, or change filter cutoff, or change the effects, change the Rev Time, you could automate changes to the Arp as the phrase plays... the possibilities are up to your imagination.

(We’ll post some examples in the near future).
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  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 9
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
ok, well, it can´t be just that because setting it to beat, sync or off instead of arp produces the same recordings: no autoknob movement.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 10
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
ok, well, it can´t be just that because setting it to beat, sync or off instead of arp produces the same recordings: no autoknob movement.
Some times it is difficult to understand what you are not seeing, but let’s try again... there are several concepts that get tied together here. Although it is a ways out into the pool, we are not yet at the deep end! Let’s take a few basic concepts...

The Motion Sequencer
The Motion Sequencer is a method to apply parameter changes - you can automate parameter changes. But they cannot be heard alone. Like any ‘modulator’, you hear the results on the directly triggered sound to which the changes are applied. (Panning cannot be heard until it is applied to a sound; Volume changes cannot be heard until there is a sound; opening a filter doesn’t register until you hear it brightening a sound).

It is referred to as Sequence because it can be series of changes that take place over time. Setting the “Knob Auto” (the Super Knob Motion Sequencer) so that it Syncs to “Beat” or “Tempo” or “Arp” or even “Off” requires you select a Part that determines how the MSeq will behave when triggered. This is called the “Sync Part”. In the Performance that you have selected that Part is designated as “Part 1”.

In general, Motion Sequences are triggered by a Note-On event, very much like Arpeggio phrases. Once triggered they can continue (loop), they can play once and stop, they can play while you touch Keys, and stop when you release, they can be toggled on and off, etc. The parameters associated with the MS determine how it will behave. The differences in the “Sync” parameter options is oft misunderstood. But they all require you initiate them (trigger them) with an event.

“Sync = Arp” means that the start of the Arp phrase for Part 1 triggers the Motion Sequence; whatever triggers the Arp to start will start the Motion Sequence; whenever the Arp is triggered the MS will be triggered also. Arp phrases have the following typical behavior, when they are triggered (w/Key press) they begin from the top of the phrase and typically change at the top of a measure. Arp phrases can be set to Loop or play once; it can play only when notes are held, it can be set to play continuously with no notes held ...you have lots of options and behaviors.
__ Example: If the Motion Seq finishes its Cycle before the Arp phrase finishes, the fact that Arp phrase returns to the top after each cycle, will retrigger the MSeq. If you are playing Part 1 normally and have the Arp phrase Velocity Limited to begin at a threshold 100-127, then the MSeq will wait until you reach a Velocity of 100, at which point both the Part 1 Arp phrase and the Motion Seq start together.
Summary: The Motion Sequence looks to the Arp phrase for when to run and when to stop running. This gives you plenty of programmable options. But when attempting to record an Arpeggio Phrase (notes) that has sync’d to a Motion Sequence, you must record the ‘trigger notes’... not the arpeggiated notes.

The other Sync options proffer quite different results. The behavior of each is slightly different. But they all require the same record methodology - which is to record the MIDI events that trigger them. This is necessary because, again, alone a Motion Seq cannot be heard. They are applied to the sound.

“Beat” for example, allows the Motion Sequence to be started whenever you touch the key. It does not have to wait for top of the measure. And since the “Sync Part” can be the any of the 16 Parts, control over the start of the Motion Seq can be almost anything.

“Tempo” it will follow the tempo, started when Part 1 is triggered by touching a Key. As you can imagine, Tempo is typically constant and continuous... so play is not subject to stopping once triggered... and it will dutifully follow changes to Tempo sources.

“Off” it will follow the internal “Speed” setting, which can run free (analog) versus the Tempo.

But no matter the SYNC setting, to record Motion Sequences requires that you record the ‘trigger notes’; this means you must turn “Arp Rec = Off” whenever there is an active Arpeggiator involved in the sync’ing - Arp being ‘off’ allows the *direct* key presses to be recorded and played back to an armed Arpeggiator and armed Motion Sequencer... the MSeqs are applied to the target sound.

The Parameter movements are meaningless unless applied
It is still a true statement, a MIDI track can logically record your direct key presses (trigger note) or it can record the output of an Arpeggiator... not both. This is why when Sync = Arp, like when using a CTRL Arp where the Key Mode must be “Direct”, you must record the trigger note data... because the MS is applied to the resulting sound.

Any automated movement, as in the Super Knob (“Knob Auto”) Motion Sequencer, is real time internal parameter change. It does not leave ‘footprints’ - in other words, when you physically turn a Knob this causes a stream of MIDI event messages to travel to the MIDI Out, but any automated movement of the Super Knob Motion Sequencer does not leave footprints. No MIDI data is transmitted to the MIDI Out. It’s that simple.

This means you must leave the MS On/Off conditions ready (armed) so that when the “trigger note” MIDI data is played back, the automated movement of the MS can take place in real time.

The Motion Sequence data ‘turning’ a Knob as automation is quite different from you physically turning that Knob. When you physically turn the Knob, it generates a Control Change message or it generates a System Exclusive Parameter Change message. When that same Knob is being ‘turned’ by an automated function (the MS), it does not stream data Out via MIDI. This means when you playback the data, the MS is active... no events were recorded documenting its movement - you playback the notes you played and Motion Sequence is applied during playback..

Extra Credit: (how this works)
Other types of “automated” movements that do not stream MIDI events: It is similar to controlling Pitch Modulation Depth (vibrato) with an LFO; this is a kind of synth engine ‘automation’ that leaves no MIDI Out ‘footprints’. A Note-on occurs, if that sound has an LFO applying change to pitch, that change in pitch was not recorded as events. It is the note-on event that is recorded, and when played back the LFO will apply its movement to the sound as it plays back. The LFO must be active (armed) to manipulate the played back sound. That LFO is still ‘working’ during playback.

It is similar to controlling Amplitude with an Envelope Generator Setting; this is a kind of ‘one-shot’ automation that leaves no MIDI Out ‘footprint’. A Motion Sequence can only be manifest by triggering the direct sound ...the changing parameters are applied to the sound. Like the LFO and/or the EG, he Motion Sequencer is still ‘working’ during playback.

Automated movement is triggered (started) by the specific Note-on events. But to document what it is doing you record those triggering events, then when those events are played back to the instrument, the Motion Sequence will be applied.

Controller Arps are very similar to how Motion Sequences work, in both instances in order to hear them you must allow the (Key Mode) Direct notes to pass... this is because the Motion Sequence cannot be heard by itself, you can only hear it as it is applied to a sound. It follows that the direct key presses, (the trigger notes) must be recorded. When these trigger notes are played back the Motion Sequence is applied in real time to the sound in that Part. Say the MSeq is panning... you cannot hear panning by itself, only when it is applied to sound triggered direct.

Don’t let this hurt your head, but because the Motion Sequencer is a modulator, you cannot hear it by itself... only when it is applied to a sound. Like in FM synthesis you cannot hear the Modulator, only as it is applied to the Carrier.

If the vibrato is the modulator, and the bow on string is the carrier... when the violinist stops the vibrato you can still hear the violin sound, but if the bow stops tickling the string, the vibrato (left hand) by itself makes no sound.

Hope that helps...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 11
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Ok, Bad Mister, but why does this only happen with the internal Montage recorder? If the ARP trigger notes are needed for the MS and autoknob istead of the recorded ARP notes, then why does the autoknob and MS recording work in Cubase with the ARP REC setting? Cos it does.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 12
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