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  1. Giovanni
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. Saturday, 09 September 2017
Hi,
today I have tried the American Grand Piano Library on the Monty of my friend.
I liked the piano sound, very much! I would buy it, but I was especially annoyed by a background noise when the notes were backed up.
Have you also found it?
Thank you.
Responses (32)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Giovanni wrote:

Hi,
today I have tried the American Grand Piano Library on the Monty of my friend.
I liked the piano sound, very much! I would buy it, but I was especially annoyed by a background noise when the notes were backed up.
Have you also found it?
Thank you.


Acabo de comprar la librería de sonido y me pasa exactamente lo mismo que a tí; aparece un ruido de fondo continuo muy molesto (una especie de siseo)

Un saludo
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 21
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I bought American Grand Piano Library from https://www.yamahamusicsoft.com/synth/american-grand-9 and installed to my Yamaha Montage8.
I met the same problem.
If you press some key notes and hold, then press some lower tone, the noise can be heard obviously.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 22
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Would suggest that all who identify some issue with the set inform the content producer so they can properly address this user feedback.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 23
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I have looked at this thread a few times over the last year, and I have also experienced this same issue; I reached out to Synthogy in an email for support. Hopefully, they will take some action on this, as it's quite an obvious artifact in the sound especially when sustaining the more quiet waveforms (ppp, pp, mp, etc). It sounds similar to microphone hiss when the gain is raised.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 24
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I heard back from Synthogy today. Kudos to them for the quick turnaround. They wanted to clarify one point that I mistook from Bad Mister in my inquiry: The American Grand for Montage is not a product sold by Synthogy (Sorry Bad Mister, I may have misquoted/misinterpreted your earlier response from this thread when I wrote my email to them). Synthogy Support stated that it is a sample set that was licensed to Yamaha and sold by Yamaha. The sample set delivered to Yamaha was encoded by Yamaha for their platform (the Montage in this case).

They also stated that they have reached out to Yamaha to look into this issue, and determine if anything went wrong in the process. Their bottom line answer was: "We have concluded that everything with respect to this content is functioning properly on the Montage platform."

They advised I contact Yamaha for a refund if dissatisfied which is unfortunate. I'm still left with some unanswered questions as to how they came to the conclusion that it's functioning properly. They didn't say whether they had someone listen to a Montage or recording of a Montage playing notes in the low velocity range both with and without sustain to confirm they didn't find an issue; or if that was the response they received when they reached out to Yamaha themselves.

I want to circle back and explain what I did to reproduce the issue (besides just playing and noticing something definitely noisy and not befitting the quality of the rest of the pianos on-board). First, I selected the 2-part AG Concert performance. Then I selected Edit - Part 1 - All Element. I muted all elements except element 1 which has the AG PPP sample. Then with the sustain pedal down I played middle C to G repeatedly in the velocity range of the element. I did the same thing for Part 2 on the high register of the keyboard without the sustain pedal to eliminate the extra effects of damper resonance. Part 2 is note limited to G# 5 and above, and is simulating the strings with no damping so the effect is still pronounced in the AG PPP waveform even with no sustain pedal. I also experimented with the element EQ by attenuating the element 1 EQ Hi Gain to -12.00dB in the 3 kHz range, and noticed a drastic reduction in the unwanted noise (while also obviously softening the tone of the piano). For reference, I am listening through a pair of Yamaha HS8 monitors that otherwise have no noticeable noise/interference audible through the speakers with any of the other performances on the Montage.

I realize that sound is generally a subjective topic, so please take what I'm stating with a grain of salt; I'm only providing another data point as someone who believes there is an issue with this particular sample set.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 25
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Here another deeply unsatisfied customer of American Grand :(
Bought just yesterday, played at least 6 hours (not consequentially) and realized that there's too much background noise in the pp and ppp dynamics for my taste.
I asked YamahaMusicSoft a full refund and I hope they'll take my request into consideration.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 26
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Functioning properly is probably an objective statement. When we press a key - sound comes out. When we press it with low velocities - the intended sound triggers. Other velocities and the right elements sound. Check, check. Works.

The sound quality is a subjective evaluation that seems to have fairly widespread agreement there's some issue. I do not see sufficient care taken with the subjective evaluation of this set by Synthogy. I'm not sure it matters what the paper trail is of license and contracted recording/engineering. Synthogy puts their name on this product and should address why the lower velocity samples do not measure up to expectations by many users with demonstrable tests to hear artifacts using approved sound reinforcement (Yamaha HS series studio monitors). I have no leverage here as a bystander - I don't own this product.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 27
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Functioning properly is probably an objective statement. snip I have no leverage here as a bystander - I don't own this product.

Well, after having received the refund I erased completely American Grand from my Montage7. Period. I'll keep playing Bösendorfer :p
There's no reason keeping a series of waveforms and keybanks that make me nervous everytime I come across with those background noises. Playing a sampled piano (with all its limitations) is done to avoid issues during recording... but what can I do if the sound is already noisy?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 28
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation

I want to circle back and explain what I did to reproduce the issue (besides just playing and noticing something definitely noisy and not befitting the quality of the rest of the pianos on-board). First, I selected the 2-part AG Concert performance. Then I selected Edit - Part 1 - All Element. I muted all elements except element 1 which has the AG PPP sample. Then with the sustain pedal down I played middle C to G repeatedly in the velocity range of the element. I did the same thing for Part 2 on the high register of the keyboard without the sustain pedal to eliminate the extra effects of damper resonance. Part 2 is note limited to G# 5 and above, and is simulating the strings with no damping so the effect is still pronounced in the AG PPP waveform even with no sustain pedal.

Here are my 2 cents. If you bought the American Grand and really love the main piano sounds, but do not like the noisy part, then if it were me, I'd find what element(s) of what parts are causing it. Reading some posts, it appears that a few have figured out which elements are causing the issue. So what I would do is mute those elements, and find the same type of element from the CFX Grand and add it in to the AG performance. You would still have the main sound of the AG, but the noisy elements would be replaced.

The Synthogy Ivory C7 Grand is actually my favorite piano and I have the VST, but they don't make a Montage library yet, so I plan to use SampleRobot Montage Edition to capture the main sounds, and borrow the "key-off release" and other parts from the CFX piano elements/parts to complete it! At least I'll have the main sample layer sounds, and the rest will not matter as no one is going to know the difference between a subtle CFX or C7 key-off release sample... ;)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 29
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I just bought the 'Synthogy American Grand' piano recently and did not experience any of the noise issues as described here.
Did Yamaha or Synthogy fix the issue?
Maybe it's just my earphones are weak on the 3K or other frequencies and it's masking the noise on me..!?

I have not tried playing it with the earphones cranked up past the point of the volume that an actual acoustic Grand would be, but I will try putting the volume up all the way when I get home from work today to see if there is any noise in elements 1 - 4. I will even increase 3 KHz on the EQ to see if I can hear it, and provide an update.

Looking at my previous post, I see that I misunderstood and thought that there was a separate element just for "key-off" release that may have been making the noise described above; however I now see that there is no key-off release elements/samples and that they are referring to the softest piano elements. I will also try different types of earphones & my computer speakers (I don't have speakers yet for my Montage, as I am saving up for the more expensive Adam A7x's).

What I can say at this point with what I've experienced so far, is that the 'Synthogy American Grand' Steinway piano is quite awesome and compliments the CFX really well! Love it so far...
If I do hear noise, I will fix it somehow rather than get a refund and not have it at all...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 30
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
So here's my update:

After turning the volume up all the way, I could hear the 'noise' in the softer piano samples (ppp, mp), as described above. There is some noise in those samples that shouldn't be there and maybe it could be the FEG settings &/or EQ'ing that exaggerates it..!? Either way, Synthogy definitely captured some unwanted noise when they sampled the softer velocity layers of that piano that are found in the first 4 elements of both PARTs!

However, if I turn the volume up to where I can just barely start to hear the noise, especially playing softly on the highest notes, and then I start playing with some Forte and hit the higher sample velocity layers (elements 5-8) across the entire keyboard, the piano level is WAY TOO LOUD!!! In contrast, if I only set the volume of the pianos to the same as a real acoustic grand piano would be if you were to sit in front of & play one, then I can 'not' hear that noise at all (at least not through my earphones). Maybe it's just my hearing is starting to go bad in those frequencies, or maybe others have hearing closer to a dog's, but at the proper or at least a reasonable volume that is close to & not too much louder than an acoustic grand, I can't hear the noise at all..!!

While I had the volume turned up 'too loud', I did try lowering the 3K frequency (as suggested above) with a bit of a narrow Q on the EQ, and it seemed to get rid of the noise completely; however I didn't do an indepth check of other frequencies to find what the full range of frequencies that the noise resides in. Some quick adjustments to the FEG seemed to get rid of the noise as well, but doing so also got rid of some of the 'good' highs, making it sound too dull or dark.

Maybe this noise is much more pronounced through speakers like the HS8's that someone mentioned above, than it is through earphones!? If the noise is just in a narrow range around 3K, then that is curiously interesting to me, since it was around the 2.8K mark that I found the HS8's to be a bit harsh & honky sounding when playing pianos, thus I had that frequency notched down when trying to get my HS8's to sound closer to the Adam Audio A7x speakers that I had also tried and compared against. Without any EQ adjustment, the Adam's sounded sonically perfect to my ears and with my eyes closed gave me the experience that I was playing an actual CFX grand. I ended up taking back the HS8's because I couldn't get the frequencies EQ'd just right for pianos, so for now I am just using earphones until I have saved up enough to buy the Adam A7x's.

The Synthogy American Grand Steinway sounds way too awesome & realistic at the proper/reasonable volume level to even consider getting rid of & not using it. It is now one of my 'go to' pianos and I even like it better than the Bosendorfer.
My suggestion to those who like to play pianos mainly in the softer velocity ranges, is to turn the volume down to a level where an actual acoustic grand is at, to get a more authentic experience. If an acoustic Steinway is being played softly, then it's not just the tone that is softer, but also the volume that is naturally lower. Turning the volume up to hear the softer piano notes more loudly, to the point whereby you can hear this noise, is not a natural volume for getting the experience of an actual acoustic Steinway. If you sit at a Steinway and play softly, it will be at a volume much lower than the volume level at which that 'noise' can be heard on the Synthogy American Grand via a Montage/MODX synth...
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 31
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I had more time to play around with the American Grand last night. Even with the volume up all the way on my earphones, whereby the piano is WAY TOO LOUD, and with all effects disabled, I could barely hear the noise on the 'AG Concert' performance. I had to bring the highs up on the piano to really hear the noise, or just bring up 3.75 K on the EQ. The previous day that I worked with that piano library and heard the noise, I was using the 'AG Rock' performance, which has the highs up on the EQ, as well as compression turned on.

I found (as another poster above did) that 3.75 K is where to notch down the EQ, with roughly a .9 Q to get rid of the noise. In most cases, for volumes at what an actual grand would be, the noise is not audible, but just to be sure/safe, I will likely have 3.75 K down a bit on both PARTs' EQs, so that when I have the 'AG Rock' or versions of that piano that have the highs more prevalent (& especially if compression is enabled), I won't be able to hear the noise at all through any speakers/earphones, even if the level is up a fair bit past what an actual acoustic grand's volume is.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE Series Synthesizers
  3. # 32
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