YamahaSynth.com Forums

This is the place to talk about all things related to Yamaha Synthesizers!
  1. Tom
  2. Sherlock Holmes The Voice
  3. MONTAGE
  4. Sunday, 15 April 2018
Hi All.
I am looking for some help here.
I want to have A/D in Drums.Synced Beat.
I need the samples or program to be sending. Humanized or Real Drummer samples.
what product(s) can I use?

Now it is not relevant Whether the Drums are for the song I am playing. Just the Grove, BPM and Meter.
This is just So. I can play/record my Key/Synth parts at a natural feel. Later a Real Drummer will play. The Real drums in to the song.
But i can never have a real drummer play here.
I find. I can not play natural to a click or ARP drum. As they land Exactly on the Bar line.
I am horrible at trying to play drums via Keys or pads. So even if they are just samples. As long as I can get a natural 3 minute ish 100 BPM.
drum driving/Synced to the arps. I can then Get into what I am playing. And get a Good result.
Beat Sync. Was one of the Reasons I bought the Montage. But finding natural played Source drums.
Is proving to be a problem. Or I just cannot figure out how to Search for what I am looking for.
Thanks in advance.
Responses (7)
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Also
I have used a number of songs that I jam with as A/D in. Auto beat sync. And it works great.
But I need to avoid using real songs. As they have breaks and Rolls. That would be in the wrong places.
So my simple end goal
10 or so Different Drum Sample tracks that Are Real. at 10 diff Tempo settings. (I can always Vary the tempo a Little for each type)
They could be Just 12 bars long and looped. I just need to feel those Nuances and Slight Ahead/Behind hits a Real drummer makes.
Hell I may already own what I need. Just do not know it
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 1
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi All.
I am looking for some help here.
I want to have A/D in Drums.Synced Beat.
I need the samples or program to be sending. Humanized or Real Drummer samples.
what product(s) can I use?
You’ll need to explore the many external options to plug into the A/D Inputs (drum machine, live drummer, etc) for yourself.

Recognize that actually you *can* play to a click or Arp pattern... of course, you can! Recognize also so called “real” drummers actually really do try to play in time. Just because as humans there are small variations you would actually have less luck trying to follow a live drummer than following a metronome or Arp.

The click of a metronome is cold (but steady), Arps can be customized to a great degree using the built-in “play fx“ which allow you to adjust the timing and feel of Arpeggios. The Arp Play FX allow you to apply “Swing” (offsetting the offbeats so each beat is not strictly even), “Unit Multiply” (which changes how the phrase references tempo), “Gate Time” (the duration of Note-on events), and Velocity (allowing you adjust the attitude)... if you have never worked with these then we highly recommend you do.

In our series on Montagifying Motif XF Data, several of the Performances feature Arp adjustments with these Arp Play FX. Before you go spending more money, we would be remiss if we didn’t point out exactly what you have already onboard.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 2
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
"Bad MR.: You’ll need to explore the many external options to plug into the A/D Inputs (drum
machine, live drummer, etc) for yourself."

Phil. I do use Songs that I Jam with as A/D in. And It is great. I get lost inthe music a lot. That is the point.
A live drummer is not possible for me here.

"Bad MR.:Recognize that actually you *can* play to a click or Arp pattern... of course, you can! "

Phil. Well Yes I can 'Play to a Click'. I just have a very hard time. Getting into it. I have been a Adlib type for 55 years. Very hard 4 me to *Feel* to the Harshness of a Click. I am very used to Anticipating The Drummer or leading the Drummer.
I still study Dynamics and Emoting.(A sort of lost art in today's music.).

"Bad MR.:Recognize also so called “real” drummers actually really do try to play in time. Just because
as humans there are small variations you would actually have less luck trying to follow a
live drummer than following a metronome or Arp."

Phil. This I sort of disagree with. But In General. Yes People can follow a metronome. Easier than Real.
But I will Add. Once You know the drummer and how He/she plays. You can More freely express yourself.(At least with me that is the case.). Within 30 minutes of playing with a Real Drummer. I usually have a Handle on how They. PUSH an/or LAG.
So Give me some Real drummer Tracks/Samples. That I have heard 2-3 times. And I can Jump into the Groove.
Curse or blessing. I have alway been able to 'Anticipate' What the other musicians will do.

"Bad MR: Arps can be customized to a great degree
using the built-in “play fx“ which allow you to adjust the timing and feel of Arpeggios. The
Arp Play FX allow you to apply “Swing” (offsetting the offbeats so each beat is not strictly
even), “Unit Multiply” (which changes how the phrase references tempo), “Gate Time” (the
duration of Note-on events), and Velocity (allowing you adjust the attitude)... if you have
never worked with these then we highly recommend you do."

The Arp Adjust Info may be one of the answers for me. I will study it and Experiment.
I will also Study the "Montagifying Motif XF Data" The 2 items. Might Just get me close enough. I am stuck on over 20 songs right now.
4 My song projects. I am not fan of Unit multiply. As it is Fixed settings. IE: 75% or 133% or ..... I would like to dial in 103% if that is what I felt.
And You are Right. I do not use The Montage Capabilities very much. And I should.
Again Thanks for the Info. hopefully it will get me. Out of my Rut.

Thank You Tom
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 3
Bad Mister
Yamaha
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Great discussion. I appreciate and respect your approach. This subject is something that we each have to deal with and we each develop our unique ways of doing it. And that’s what is so interesting. I know just what you are referring to with playing with live drummers and that thing (call it that “human” communication thing)...

So when approaching “technology”, and by technology we can include any timing automation ... a metronome, of any kind, is technology... so even Bach and Beethoven had to deal with “technology”. But as a player in an ensemble there is a deeper dynamic to developing a “sound”... when you hear a rhythm section that has played together for years, you can feel that “thing”. Now that is not to say you couldn’t get three strangers to play together and have them do an outstanding job... but there is a difference, with all kinds of nuance and degrees in between. That’s music.

It’s similar to players who become top session players, there’s an art to being able to overdub (without the rest of the players there) and yet fit into the groove, especially when perhaps, not all the components are even present yet. This, I feel is all apart of the same discussion.

The first time you ever have to put together a groove, one Part at a time... you discover the need to work at getting that “feel”. When someone like Stevie Wonder, or Sly Stone or Jan Hammer, would play all the instruments themselves by overdubbing each instrument (Prince did that too) and yet it sounded like a band, that was outstanding. Because they were able to develop that thing you’re talking about with the tracks, laying one down after the other. (It ain’t easy...)

You have to, like anything, work it out. Some times developing the right feel means adjusting several components... in any discussion of what makes something swing, you can wind up over studying it, but there is an evolving thing about it. And that is what is tough to capture... you can’t just repeat the same one or two measures again and again and expect to get the same energy - Part of “feel” is the imperfection and subtle differences.

The “Swing” and “Unit Multiply” parameters are worth study, because they can be easily misunderstood. If your thinking you might need 103%, I can tell you are thinking Unit Multiply is something else - trust me on this one. Actually, you probably would not ever actually want 103%. That would be far too many sub-divisions for the objective of Unit Multiply.

Swing is where you want the ability to play with the finer sub-divisions of “feel”.
UNIT MULTIPLY when 100% the phrase plays at the set tempo
When set to 50% the phrase plays in half the time. Musicians call that double-time
When set to 200% the phrase plays in twice the time... the same phrase takes exactly twice as long, half time. Now all the settings in between will not necessarily make sense when used for Arpeggios with note phrases, but Unit Multiply is also accessible by the Motion Sequences (which feature controller movements) which could benefit from happening and restarting every one and a half times, or after going a third of the way through, against the tempo. Say you want a left/center/right panning scheme to start over half way through the second repeat of its movement... this is when the 75% and 150% settings make sense.

Technically, Unit Multiply is a way to make a phrase reference the tempo.

Noted musical phrases immediately can use “double time” or settings. If you are using a 12/8 phrase against 4/4 time then 66% makes musical sense. A Motion Sequence controlling a spiraling pitch change you might want to reference against the clock in lengths that sub-divide differently against the current tempo. The Unit Multiply goes 300%, 400% and beyond... again you can things happen ever 4 measures (automating an Effect)... Musical phrases like to fit the measure space; so 103% is not viable because of the astronomical number of repeats that would need to occur before it re-lands on a downbeat... (not that there couldn’t be a system that was setup like that), but each cycle would offset everything farther and farther from the beat structure until it would just fall completely apart, and by the time enough repeats go by for it to realign with the downbeat, it will sound like some falling down the stairs with a drum kit.

The feel aspect comes when you use “Swing” to offset the off beats. Swing delays ‘every other’ hit... so an eighth note swing would delay the even numbered eighth notes. This means instead of a quarter note being divided into two eighth notes 50/50, you can delay the even numbered eighth notes by clock ticks, lengthens the first eighth note, but maintains the tempo -so that you get that falling behind/catching up feel of swinging. It is with swing that you get what we’re talking about. Additional, shifting the velocity of the swung note adds to this, as does lengthening and shortening the note duration of the swung note (Gate Time).

As to the subtle changes in tempo that occur in live music, that no doubt happens, but it also is not as missed as one would think ... particularly if you vary those other things (velocity, gate time, and swing offset).

In other words, a drum groove that repeats, exactly the same more readily becomes artificial to our ears. A crash cymbal that is exactly the same every time gives it all away... it’s those details that tip off and ruin the illusion. So it ain’t easy... but it can be done.

I honed my skills playing “in the pocket” with a rhythm section, and translating/transplanting that “in the pocket” concept thing to MIDI/technology based systems, to me, is part of the great appeal of all this gear... any it’s what I have the most fun with.

Cool discussion. Thanks for the subject.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 4
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
it will sound like some falling down the stairs with a drum kit
I have played with some pretty bad drummers and had that very same thought occur to me. :D
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 5
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Well I pulled 103% out of my As...
It was just an example of a #. Not really giving thought to the Musical Sense of it.
Being a musician Is not easy. Just in the Blood. Doing it all yourself.
Well that takes A Lot of trial and error. To get a good workflow down. And still keep the music going in your head.
I have always Prefered to work with a Co-Writer. There is something, That happens in the passing of ideas. That sort of Gets your engine revving.
But Being so old. And My friends being. Still on the road or old and Busy. It Is really hard to get together with people these days.
Was not hard at all. Back in the days on the road. There was nothing else to do.(This was before Cable TV. or Computers/Games. LOL).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 6
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
God I hate. Not being able to edit!!!!!

What I meant to say:
I have always Prefered to work with a Co-Writer. There is something, That happens in the passing of ideas. That sort of Gets your Music engine revving. And There was almost always a Result(Good or Bad)..

Now I almost never talk about myself.
Glory Days! That and $2.00 Will get you a cup of Coffee. LOL.
But Hey Who knows How long I will be around
So(And this is also a little advice for Younger Musicians).

First. Make sure you have a Music Attorney. One that does not work in anyway. With the Record labels.
This was. My biggest mistake When I was young.

I was Semi-Famous ish. Signed to 2 major labels.
I was Really famous among. The great Blues players. As I was Called the Greatest Harmonica Player in the World.
By some music Magazine. (I did not agree with this.)
I got to play with Some of the Greatest Bluse people in history. I jammed with the Harmonica player from J Giles. Who told me I was the first equal. He had met/heard. He was one of my Idols.
But 'Sonny Boy Williamson'. Was My real Harmonica player Idol.
I could have stayed on that Road. And Been very Famous in blues music.
But there was a "Girl" and I wanted to be. A Singer not just a Side man Harmonica player.(We are really stupid. When we are young.).
And Because I was White. I never got my picture on any of the Blues Albums I played on. Nor name credit.(It just did not fit with the times.).
I did get paid Really, Really well.
Now I accidentally/got Conned. Sold complete Rights to 8 songs I wrote(Thought I was just selling "USE Rights";).
A couple turned out to be worth Millions. I am still not allowed to Say What they were.
Made me Very Very Harsh with the Music Industry. So much So.
I told some Major labels to F off(A Music attorney. Could have Straightened it out.). So I became My own worst Enemy.
So for You current And Young players. Even if you can Understand the wording of a Music contract. Get a Buffer. IE: A music attorney.
You should never deal Face to face with these Music people.(I have seen some Current Recording contracts. They are Worse than Ever!)
Right now. I have 9 or 10 songs That my Attorney Says are sold.(use rights).
They are not Ever Sold until you get the $ .

Thank You Tom
  1. more than a month ago
  2. MONTAGE
  3. # 7
  • Page :
  • 1


There are no replies made for this post yet.
Be one of the first to reply to this post!
2018 © Yamaha Corporation of America and Yamaha Corporation. All rights reserved.